Soviets/Russia and China, which was worse?

[ryukyurhymer]

This will probably be a controversial topic and I don't intend to create this to create flaming..

but as we know, there are many Turkic, Tungusic, and Mongolic peoples who are minorities in Russia and China.
Uighurs, Buryats, Kalmyks, Tatars, etc..

However over the course of time, which has been over all worse, or even beneficial to these peoples?

Some pros and cons off the top of my head.

- Russia/USSR has been more willing to create a variety of autonomous republics than the Chinese.. however both have had histories of conflict between the majority and the minority as well as migration issues into areas populated by the minorities..

- Some Russian republics like Tatarstan seem to enjoy far more greater autonomy than ethnic areas in China.

- Some minorities in China seem to have retained more of their traditional culture than their Soviet counterparts. whether good or bad.

- I'm not quite sure how to estimate they faired in assimilation.. for example in China, the Manchus are virtually entirely assimilated while the Uighurs and Tibetans faired much better. in Russia/USSR, the Turkmen and Uzbeks did better against assimilation, but seems like some Tatars and Kazakhs adopted many elements of Russian thinking and culture.. and other smaller ones especially in both countries.. like Evenkis, only speak the dominant language.

- in terms of likelyhood to seperate from the dominant country.. Russia seems more likely as some countries succeeded in breaking off (i.e Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc). while others gained more autonomy (i.e Tatarstan). An independent Inner Mongolia or E.Turkistan/Xinjiang seems very unlikely in the next 50 years. However countries that seperated from the USSR are still within Russia's sphere of influence to varying degrees..especially economic. the Central Asian countries are landlocked and will require good relations with China, Iran or Russia in order to get stuff/in and out to the international market. Even countries that have access to the ocean (like Georgia and Ukraine) are still under the sway of Russia and have seen much intervention from that country (especially Georgia)..

any thoughts?

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

I think they are the same in being worseness.

[Verinen Paroni]

Ryukyurhymer, Dont forget Finnic people in russia.

[Verinen Paroni]

I think that chinese are worse than russians.

It is always more easier to separate from russia than from china.

[nanman]

What happened in 1989-91 was technically a breakup of USSR not Russia itself.

Russia like China right now is not giving an inch of its territorial integrity. The events in the Caucasus speaks for itself.

The Siberic areas of Russia are in the same situation. The Buryats, Outer Manchurians, Yakuts, Altay and Tuvan Republic etc they won't be able to break away easily.

The Russians have somewhat got better at dealing with their separatism issues than the Chinese in that you can probably flag the Tuvan flag and not get tortured. Thats because they know you won't be able to do anymore than jump up and down in front of them. But try taking the issue further and attempt any arm resistance, the Chechens can tell you more about what happens.

[Verinen Paroni]

I heard that some areas in russian federation have even somekind of independence.

Legally there is accepted if some republic wants to leave russian federation, but russkies made law that every russian federation citizens can vote against or for that... And most of whole federation citizens will vote against if for example Kalmukia wants to total independence.

[nanman]

verinenparoni said:

I heard that some areas in russian federation have even somekind of independence.

Legally there is accepted if some republic wants to leave russian federation, but russkies made law that every russian federation citizens can vote against or for that... And most of whole federation citizens will vote against if for example Kalmukia wants to total independence.

So effectively they "democratically" deny their right for independence. They make it constitutionally impossible to break away.

[Verinen Paroni]

nanman said:

verinenparoni said:

I heard that some areas in russian federation have even somekind of independence.

Legally there is accepted if some republic wants to leave russian federation, but russkies made law that every russian federation citizens can vote against or for that... And most of whole federation citizens will vote against if for example Kalmukia wants to total independence.

So effectively they "democratically" deny their right for independence. They make it constitutionally impossible to break away.

Indeed...

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

But you should take into account that these autonomous republics have an important Russian population.

[Verinen Paroni]

admin said:

But you should take into account that these autonomous republics have an important Russian population.

True, unfortunately.

For example Karelia is now about 20% Finnish anymore...

[Subu'atai]

The Russian Federation is a large union of semi-independent republics but still vassals of Russia. However, they seem to have more rights then that of China. My grandmother still lives in Novobirsk though she's more Uralic then Tatar (by blood only - heart is different), and she says the same thing.

Yes there are skinheads in Russia unlike in China, but there are skinhead nationalists against Russians too, hell even seperatist 'terrorists' (e.g. Chechens).

Ok fine I'm part Russian but I'm no Russian spy, my loyalty is for the Altai. Ne ways, do note too that many people in the semi-independent republics have become dependent on the whole of Russia's resources, and not just that, but dependent on its military for defense as well.

Also, to make sure these republics maintain their dependency, positive relations have been made for example - between Russians and Mongolians. So Mongolians would 'respect' Russia's sovereignity of their lands and turn their attention instead against China. Worked well - As China alone is Russia's one major threat. However, Mongolians have turned this around recently and said 'Ok, we'll be friends, but what's in it for us, we havent forgotten about the Buryat republic' etc etc.

Legally there is accepted if some republic wants to leave russian federation, but russkies made law that every russian federation citizens can vote against or for that... And most of whole federation citizens will vote against if for example Kalmukia wants to total independence.

There's a few ways around this issue:

1) Dangerous political games to 'acquire' votes
PROS: 'Legal' and possibly 'peaceful' breakaway.
CONS: Hard to implement, very dangerous

2) Have neighbouring nations build up strength and be powerful enough to challenge the Ruskie, call for a seperatist movement, and be prepared to move in. (Oh, steal some nukes first just in case so they can't threaten you with 'em)
PROS: Less political scheming, pure independence
CONS: Both China and Russia are bloody nuclear-armed

3) Unite and organise all seperatist movements as one, turncoating military officers especially those who have possession of nuclear arms, and declaring independence of all non-uralic lands.
PROS: Potential for a major civil war costing millions of lives
CONS: Incredibly difficult to implement, Russian spies will not allow it for obvious reasons

[ryukyurhymer]

thanks subutai!

okay from what it seems...

Russia:
+ Today's Russia, ethnic republics have more freedoms and abilities in some areas compared to China
+ non Russians could climb up to higher positions in Soviet society. After all, the USSR had a Georgian leader, and its founder was a Russian/Jew/Kalmyk mix.
- promoted some mass migration polices in some areas
- many ethnicities were heavily Russified.

China
+ some ethnicities here preserve traditional aspects better than their Russian counterparts. Kazakhs here still use arabic script, etc
+ minorities get some benefits that Hans don't normally get (but i dunno what kind of benefits Russia gives out to its minorities)
- more limited chances to climb up political hierarchy than Russia/Soviet union. a minority may be the governor of a minority region, but it seems that the political head of a region is never a minority.
- mass migration and assimilation threat for several areas

although unfortunately since almost all of the Turkic and Mongol speaking world is land locked.. they will have to maintain good relations with both in order to survive in this global economic world.

[Subu'atai]

Yes - also in Ukraine, there was a Buryat prime minister. However, Ukraine isn't Russia. Still, it's good to note this fact. I just posted on another thread, but Altai unity can also seek to protect our culture/way of life/relations/traditions/language/lands from both China and Russia. Even in occupied areas - if not ESPECIALLY in occupied areas.

I hate sometimes many Mongolians who consider south Mongols Chinese or Buryat Mongols Russia now due to the assimilation, giving up on them entirely. We are determined people, we can do this. Bah, I'm almost a nationalist if I'm not one already heh. I just believe in this 21st century, nations should exist, not superpowers or empires. We've already left our mark in history, but I do not wish us to become like China or Russia either.

[Temüjin]

Ireland was Englands slave for over 700 years but they didn't gave up, they didn't lost their identity or will for independence and with the help of the IRA they eventually suceeded after many failed previous rebellions. of course northern Ireland is still British but Ulster got assimilated by Anglo-Norman protestant colonists. i have a big admiration for the Irish and what they achieved, and how they managed to preserve their national identity against such a long and heavy occupation.

[Subu'atai]

Agreed - the Celts don't give up easy nor should we. An Irishman told me this once: "Mongols and Irishmen have a lot in common; we both don't know when to stop drinking, and we both don't know when to stop fighting!" lol

Chingghis Khaan Irish Pub in Ulaanbaatar - tribute to the Irish! Occupiers called the IRA terrorists, they called the Chechens terrorists, freedom fighters is what I call them.

We have independent nations now but many of our people's lands are still occupied by foreigners. To the point that our people there are nearing extinction. Sure we have to play it smart, and don't just declare independence unprepared or unable to deal attrition on our enemies when they come.

Resistance doesn't care if it is outnumbered, resistance is RESISTANCE. That's all it needs for independence, no matter how long it takes, as long as we resist, as long as our spirit is alive, we can never lose.

d**n I'm insanely overly passionate O_-
Someone stop me lol