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Post by Azadan Januspar on Sept 8, 2008 21:54:11 GMT 3
be there any online evidence of the Turkic or Monoglic incorporation in the Saka confederations, please share with us or name the sources.
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Sept 20, 2008 3:10:36 GMT 3
I assume both IE and Turkic are theories in the meantime the discoveries on Scythian or Sakas, most importantly the question of the early inhabitants of the steppes to the chinese empires frontiers, are continuing. both after all the Iranic theory is more credible linguistically and anthropologically yet not proven. But as for Turkic theory, I think that's the theory beyond the shadow of a doubt.
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Post by Subu'atai on Dec 17, 2008 12:52:27 GMT 3
This is actually confusing me somewhat. This is the only found Scythian script of Issık Kurgan (3rd / 4th century B.C.): This is the Turkic Orkhon script: Seriously similar, the problem however is that the Scythians, like all other nomadic confederations, encompassed many people and it is very possible they spoke not one but multiple languages. Although it would seem the only written language found from Scythia resembles the Turkic alphabet. Also note this: Also you might want to study this: "Origin of Turks and Tatars" by M. Zakiev. English version here: s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/20Roots/ZakievGenesis/ZakievGenesis125-165En.htm
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 17, 2008 23:03:59 GMT 3
Yes, the first photo is a shot from the monument of Bilgä Qaġan (734)
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Dec 19, 2008 2:25:22 GMT 3
It is not yet proven that the Scythians always encompassed many people of diverse stock only in some cases. Pazyryk burials yielded incorporation of some brachycephalic people into a culture which had archaelogically characteristics of Scythian culture and also included anthroplogically typical Indo-european mummies.
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Post by tadamson on Dec 19, 2008 14:48:25 GMT 3
The Issik Kurgan script (the little round drawing above) is a variant of Kharoṣṭhī script (also known as the Gāndhārī script) from India. The text is in
Both scripts pre-date the Orkhon script by hundreds of years. The probable explanation is that the Orkhon writers adapted the pre existing system.
There is considerable evidence placing the Scyian and Sarmatian languages as a group closely related to the Iranian group.
A quick summary would be :-
Scythians and Saca were neither Turkic nor Iranian, they were part of a large ethno-linguistic group normally referred to as Scytho-Sarmatian, who were descended from largely Iranian groupings.
Tom..
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Post by sarmat on Dec 19, 2008 21:01:22 GMT 3
The Issik Kurgan script (the little round drawing above) is a variant of Kharoṣṭhī script (also known as the Gāndhārī script) from India. Unfortunately, it's just an unconfirmed and very unlikely hypo There is considerable evidence placing the Scyian and Sarmatian languages as a group closely related to the Iranian group. Again, this evidence is not considerable.
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Dec 19, 2008 22:36:45 GMT 3
Of course that may be unconfirmed but taken the nature of the case i.e. Scythian, it is like T.Talbot Rice in her book proclaimed, it's quite impossible to trace the precise ethno group of the Scythians of course with what we have in hand so far. Therefore although the most of the todays theories about their ethnic, linguistic,.. backgrounds may seem somehow unstable as the time passes, the other alternatives given so far are even more unconfirmed. As for Issyk burial it is crticized by some people, that underlying Iranian languages to translate the inscription gave an inaccurate result comparing using Old Turkic like Suleymanev said. The deficit he pointed out is the meaning of the translation the one suggested by him is: "Prince died at his 23. Farewell Esik people" is said to be mroe accurate than the former translation which was "The vessel should hold wine of grapes, added cooked food, so much, to the mortal, then added cooked fresh butter on", I should say that the latter phrase could not be inaccurate just due to its meaning, which tells of a long important tradition of alimentary bestwoing for the deceased in Central Asia whose traces is still popular in countries of Central Asia,.
I personally never heard of a seperate group Scytho-Sarmatian classified apart from Iranian subgroup. Tadmason for ethnicity of Scythians which in addition to the linguistic proof the mainstream belief based upon archealogical findings is that they were of Indo-European stock of the second IE migration. Although it is not yet certain that to which group they belonged. The theory which up to this day has been more credible is that they were related to the other Iranian people.
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Post by sarmat on Dec 20, 2008 0:08:39 GMT 3
I meant that Issyk inscription doesn't look like Kharoshti script.
And about Scythian and Sarmatian languages, unfortunately, we don't have considerable evidence; because we have only few original names in these language which were transferred by Greek and Roman historians; nothing more.
We don't have an ancient text in Scythian and Sarmatian which would confirm once and for all that they were Iranic.
Yes, we have "reconstruction" attempts which are based on Ossetian language. But again these are just attempts which are based on a thesis that Sarmatian/Scythian language was Iranic that unfortunately doesn't have definite evidence behind it.
I wonder if we have any hints by Greek and Roman authors on affinity between Persians and Scythians?
It's clear from Herodotus et al. that Scythians and Sarmatians were related. But do we have any references that Scythians and Persians were related or at least that their languages were somehow close to each other?
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Dec 20, 2008 14:53:18 GMT 3
I think it is very clear that nothing is absolute and wholly confirmed regarding Scythians/Sakas. For the indicated affinity of Scythians in ancient records I'm not yet sure of the direct indications yet. For Strabon (circa 194 - 276 BC) the inhabitants of Meida, Bactria, Sodiana and omglōttoi para mikrón were almost speaking same languages and Zhang Qian (2th century BC) said: "From Davan (Fergana) westward upto the An'si (Land of Parthians) the language - notwithstanding the considerable differences between the dialects - is almost the same and the speakers could understand eachother".* And I think those times Scythian elements widely were present in the afore-mentioned area. Moreover the Scytho-Sarmatian names in Greek inscriptions of around the Black Sea according to Oransky shows affinity to Old Iranian in terms of maintance of composite vowels and plosive consnants. Also the discovery of Bactrian language in Sorkh Kotal in modern Afghanistan shows a considerable similarity to language of Alans, gave this credence that language was a dialekt of Scytho-Sarmatian languages.
I myself believe that the apart from lingusitic point of view the study of customs of early Iranian tribes which settled in Iranian plateau especially the Medians (or according to Herodutus Airioi) and its continuity especially in field of military and religious outfit style even upto 7th century, shows an overwhelming dressing resemblance of Persians, Medians and Parthians to Scythians/Saka.
*Oransky, Iranian Languages
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Post by solyom on Jan 1, 2009 16:55:43 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 1, 2009 19:00:30 GMT 3
Greetings Solyom, welcome aboard.
Unfortunately, I don't trust such politicially-oriented websites.
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Attila
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History Enthusiast
Posts: 48
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Post by Attila on Jan 21, 2009 11:22:33 GMT 3
I don't have time to present any evidence right now, but I've always believed the Scythians, Sarmatians, and Sakae were of Iranian origin.
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Altantugs
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The Hope die at the End
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Post by Altantugs on Nov 10, 2009 5:01:38 GMT 3
The Skythians speak the north-iranian language. The Iran-Persians called Skythians as Saka. It is BC VIII-IV centuries. The indo-iranian tribes are: Skythia, Saka, Massaget, Sarmat, Yuezchi. This era is Ariean era. The Altaic people were far east steppe: from Khangai mountain to Manjuur. When the history of the Great Steppe starts, Arieans occupied South Russian Steppe, Kipchak steppe, Afghan, North India, Iran and Western Mongolia.
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Post by Alanus on Apr 25, 2010 23:35:13 GMT 3
The Skythians speak the north-iranian language. The Iran-Persians called Skythians as Saka. It is BC VIII-IV centuries. The indo-iranian tribes are: Skythia, Saka, Massaget, Sarmat, Yuezchi. This era is Ariean era. The Altaic people were far east steppe: from Khangai mountain to Manjuur. When the history of the Great Steppe starts, Arieans occupied South Russian Steppe, Kipchak steppe, Afghan, North India, Iran and Western Mongolia. Good point! Linguists classify the Scythians-Saka-Massagetae-Sarmatians-Alans as speaking a "northeastern Iranian" language. (see Dr. J.P. Mallory). BUT!-- the major language of a culture does not necessarily equate with the genetic pool of the culture itself. Through archaology, we know the Altai Saka were roughly 60 % Europoid and 40 % Asian. (This is still true of modern Kahzaks. Only the language changes.) The amazing continuity of this culture, extending from the Cimmerians to the Alans, can be seen in both their dress (tall hats), the five primary steppe weapons, and armor that continuously got heavier until we have the heavy horse, the cataphracts. The culture's continuity was well recorded by Herodotus, Pliny, Casius Dio, Strabo, and Ammianus Marcellinus. Both Dio and Ammianus make a point that the "Alans were the Massagetae." This name-change occured with a shifting in clan supremecy. The same thing arrives with names like Aorsi, Iazyges, Roxolani ("light alani"), and finally Ossetes. I believe these people were the "Wusun" in Chinese history. The Uezchi (Greater and Lesser) were the Tokarians, speaking an Indo-European language rather than Indo-Iranian. What is really important is the longstanding cultural tie. Even before documented historical references, these peope can be followed, from the first domestication of the horse, to the spoked chariot wheel, to a full-fledged cavalry. The culture starts in Sintashka-Petrovka in the bronze age, moving continuously east until reaching Altai-Yenesy, then south-west to Issyk, then north-east back to the Ural-Don region, and finally across Western Europe, through Spain and into Africa. Alanus
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