Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 18, 2004 19:25:57 GMT 3
(Originially posted by a Guest at October 10, 2004)
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Does anyone know a detailed description of the military of the 8th-9th century Uyghurs? Like what were their battle tactics, what kind of units they employed (which I would imagine remain largely steppe cavalry), how did their units look like, their armour, weaponry, unit names, etc., like the stuff you would get from Osprey books or other military books. Some of the Uyghurs at this time were Manichaeist and some Buddhist, and I also heard that during the Uyghur empire in Mongolia, the Uyghurs were already half sedentary and were one of the few peoples before modern times to have actually built sedentary-style cities in Mongolia (Uyghur capital was razed to the ground by the invading Kirghiz when they invaded Mongolia). Since the Uyghurs were part sedentary, am I wrong in assuming that the Uyghurs might have employed regular infantries, or at least much more than other peoples of Mongolia. Also, Uyghurs during this time are still predominantly the same racial stock as the Tujue or other peoples in Mongolia, and it was when they fled to the Tarim Basin that they picked up Caucasoid traits from the local Tocharians there, or am I wrong? How did their buildings look like? Also, does anyone happen to have any pictures of the Uyghur military units, like the colour plates in the Osprey books? Or does Osprey have a book on these Turkic peoples or at least have a colour plate of their military units?
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(Originially posted by me at October 10, 2004)
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I haven't studied Orkhon Uyghur military in detail but I'm sure they were very similar to the Eastern Tujue. They had important numbers of heavy cavalry, for example. If you have Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes, you can see examples of Uyghur armored warriors.
Yes, they built Qara Balghasun near Ötüken. Arabic travelers describe the city as a large and busy trade center filled with marketplaces and temples IIRC.
Qara Balghasun was destroyed by the Qïrghïz in the spring of 840. Here is a drawing showing the city's ruins:
Sorry, I don't know yet :oops:
Yes, you're correct. However, funny thing is that the Uyghurs of Xinjiang are more Mongoloid-looking (though not completely Mongoloid) than the old Uyghurs of Mongolia :?
This picture shows armored Uyghur riders from Turfan (Gaochang), I guess Uyghur heavy cavalry from Mongolia weren't very different-looking than these
Most of Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes is about the Turkic peoples of 4th-12th centuries, that would be the best for you. It's colored plates show Xiongnu, Huns, Tujue, Uyghurs, Qïrghïz, Khazars, Pechenegs, Qïpchaqs, Avars, Bulgars (both from the Balkans and Volga), etc.
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(Originially posted by UnregisteredUser at October 11, 2004)
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I haven't studied Orkhon Uyghur military in detail but I'm sure they were very similar to the Eastern Tujue. They had important numbers of heavy cavalry, for example. If you have Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes, you can see examples of Uyghur aromred warriors.
I don't have Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes and can't be getting any of the stuff I want for now, so can you please be so kind as to post them here on the boards? 8)
Was Qara Balghasun the only city mentioned in historical sources that the Uyghurs built in Mongolia?
That's odd. A lot of the modern-day Uyghurs in East Turkestan I've seen do not look Mongoloid for the most part; their Tocharian and Caucasoid traits stand out very obvious (ie Caucasoid skin, deep eye sockets, high nose bridge, lacking Mongoloid eyelid, etc.), and they only look slightly Mongoloid, although I have heard from somewhere that they are found to have around 60%-70% Mongoloid genes in them according to modern genetic testing. And yes, the more Mongoloid-looking Uyghurs I can understand because during modern-times, the late 19th-early 20th century, some Chinese settlers went into the eastern part of the region, and so mixing can occur, but other possibilities also include mixing from Mongols in the eastern regions.
But I am curious. Where did you find that the old Uyghurs of Mongolia look more Caucasoid than the ones now? I thought the Caucasoid traits found in Uyghurs are largely from the Tocharians and other Iranians in the Tarim Basin, that before they migrated there, they are largely Mongoloid and of the same racial stock like most other Turkics in Mongolia. There is no evidence of Caucasoid expansion before the European Age of Imperialism beyond the Altai mountains (the Scythians at one time briefly held territories bordering the Altais) and the Ainu aboriginals of Japan are found to be more proto-Mongoloid by some anthropologists rather than Caucasoid. Furthermore, if the old Uyghurs of Mongolia were more Caucasoid than the already Caucasoid-looking Uyghurs of East Turkestan, then the old Uyghurs would look very much like white/Caucasoid horse nomads and would probably resemble the Scythians and Sarmatians in appearance, and also the Uyghurs would definitely leave a genetic imprint on later peoples of Mongolia; but the peoples of Mongolia after the collapse of the Uyghur empire up to present-day were not described as having Caucasoid traits (at least not that I know of) and Turkic tribes under the 13th-century Mongol confederacy like the Naiman, Kereyid, etc. were not outstanding in appearance from the rest of the other neighboring nomads (who were Mongoloid in racial type). Besides, if the Uyghurs were that Caucasoid, they would get a mention in the Chinese history annals (Chinese describe the Dutch, Portuguese, and other Europeans later on as so outstanding in appearance that they were compared to animals, ie cat-eyed, eagle-mouthed, red-haired, etc.), and also the Chinese annals also mention that the peoples to the west of the ancient Gaochang statelet (Turfan) had high nose bridge and deep-eye sockets, people beyond the Pamirs had high nose bridge and hairy skin (although hairy skin may not necessarily be a uniquely Caucasoid trait, depending on the degree of "hairiness"), and there were later accounts of "blue-appled" people in southern East Turkestan. There were mention of some of the Ashina ruling class of the Tujue like Sijin (Muchu Khan) having red-face and brown eyes, but then again, these features are not uniquely Caucasoid traits to begin with (the red-face may have been a result of possessing lighter skin and different levels of exposure to ultraviolet rays, and brown eyes are not uncommon among Mongoloids); however, I do not doubt a small minority of Tujue, like most other steppe nomads, may have picked up Caucasoid traits from Turkestan or other conquered foreign lands like in Persia and the Middle East, western Siberia, and steppe lands in Russia. In addition, the Uyghurs were not identified with nomads like the Yuezhi and the Scythians, who were described as Indo-European nomads and who have been linked to the Loulan mummies found in the Tarim Basin.
The title itself is misleading. I thought the book was about Attila and the European Huns; I didn't know it would cover the major Turkic peoples like Tujue, Uyghur, Huns, etc.
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Does anyone know a detailed description of the military of the 8th-9th century Uyghurs? Like what were their battle tactics, what kind of units they employed (which I would imagine remain largely steppe cavalry), how did their units look like, their armour, weaponry, unit names, etc., like the stuff you would get from Osprey books or other military books. Some of the Uyghurs at this time were Manichaeist and some Buddhist, and I also heard that during the Uyghur empire in Mongolia, the Uyghurs were already half sedentary and were one of the few peoples before modern times to have actually built sedentary-style cities in Mongolia (Uyghur capital was razed to the ground by the invading Kirghiz when they invaded Mongolia). Since the Uyghurs were part sedentary, am I wrong in assuming that the Uyghurs might have employed regular infantries, or at least much more than other peoples of Mongolia. Also, Uyghurs during this time are still predominantly the same racial stock as the Tujue or other peoples in Mongolia, and it was when they fled to the Tarim Basin that they picked up Caucasoid traits from the local Tocharians there, or am I wrong? How did their buildings look like? Also, does anyone happen to have any pictures of the Uyghur military units, like the colour plates in the Osprey books? Or does Osprey have a book on these Turkic peoples or at least have a colour plate of their military units?
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(Originially posted by me at October 10, 2004)
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Does anyone know a detailed description of the military of the 8th-9th century Uyghurs? Like what were their battle tactics, what kind of units they employed (which I would imagine remain largely steppe cavalry), how did their units look like, their armour, weaponry, unit names, etc., like the stuff you would get from Osprey books or other military books.
I haven't studied Orkhon Uyghur military in detail but I'm sure they were very similar to the Eastern Tujue. They had important numbers of heavy cavalry, for example. If you have Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes, you can see examples of Uyghur armored warriors.
I also heard that during the Uyghur empire in Mongolia, the Uyghurs were already half sedentary and were one of the few peoples before modern times to have actually built sedentary-style cities in Mongolia (Uyghur capital was razed to the ground by the invading Kirghiz when they invaded Mongolia).
Yes, they built Qara Balghasun near Ötüken. Arabic travelers describe the city as a large and busy trade center filled with marketplaces and temples IIRC.
Qara Balghasun was destroyed by the Qïrghïz in the spring of 840. Here is a drawing showing the city's ruins:
Since the Uyghurs were part sedentary, am I wrong in assuming that the Uyghurs might have employed regular infantries, or at least much more than other peoples of Mongolia.
Sorry, I don't know yet :oops:
Also, Uyghurs during this time are still predominantly the same racial stock as the Tujue or other peoples in Mongolia, and it was when they fled to the Tarim Basin that they picked up Caucasoid traits from the local Tocharians there, or am I wrong?
Yes, you're correct. However, funny thing is that the Uyghurs of Xinjiang are more Mongoloid-looking (though not completely Mongoloid) than the old Uyghurs of Mongolia :?
Also, does anyone happen to have any pictures of the Uyghur military units, like the colour plates in the Osprey books?
This picture shows armored Uyghur riders from Turfan (Gaochang), I guess Uyghur heavy cavalry from Mongolia weren't very different-looking than these
Or does Osprey have a book on these Turkic peoples or at least have a colour plate of their military units?
Most of Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes is about the Turkic peoples of 4th-12th centuries, that would be the best for you. It's colored plates show Xiongnu, Huns, Tujue, Uyghurs, Qïrghïz, Khazars, Pechenegs, Qïpchaqs, Avars, Bulgars (both from the Balkans and Volga), etc.
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(Originially posted by UnregisteredUser at October 11, 2004)
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I haven't studied Orkhon Uyghur military in detail but I'm sure they were very similar to the Eastern Tujue. They had important numbers of heavy cavalry, for example. If you have Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes, you can see examples of Uyghur aromred warriors.
I don't have Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes and can't be getting any of the stuff I want for now, so can you please be so kind as to post them here on the boards? 8)
Yes, they built Qara Balghasun near Ötüken. Arabic travelers describe the city as a large and busy trade center filled with marketplaces and temples IIRC.
Was Qara Balghasun the only city mentioned in historical sources that the Uyghurs built in Mongolia?
Yes, you're correct. However, funny thing is that the Uyghurs of Xinjiang are more Mongoloid-looking (though not completely Mongoloid) than the old Uyghurs of Mongolia :?
That's odd. A lot of the modern-day Uyghurs in East Turkestan I've seen do not look Mongoloid for the most part; their Tocharian and Caucasoid traits stand out very obvious (ie Caucasoid skin, deep eye sockets, high nose bridge, lacking Mongoloid eyelid, etc.), and they only look slightly Mongoloid, although I have heard from somewhere that they are found to have around 60%-70% Mongoloid genes in them according to modern genetic testing. And yes, the more Mongoloid-looking Uyghurs I can understand because during modern-times, the late 19th-early 20th century, some Chinese settlers went into the eastern part of the region, and so mixing can occur, but other possibilities also include mixing from Mongols in the eastern regions.
But I am curious. Where did you find that the old Uyghurs of Mongolia look more Caucasoid than the ones now? I thought the Caucasoid traits found in Uyghurs are largely from the Tocharians and other Iranians in the Tarim Basin, that before they migrated there, they are largely Mongoloid and of the same racial stock like most other Turkics in Mongolia. There is no evidence of Caucasoid expansion before the European Age of Imperialism beyond the Altai mountains (the Scythians at one time briefly held territories bordering the Altais) and the Ainu aboriginals of Japan are found to be more proto-Mongoloid by some anthropologists rather than Caucasoid. Furthermore, if the old Uyghurs of Mongolia were more Caucasoid than the already Caucasoid-looking Uyghurs of East Turkestan, then the old Uyghurs would look very much like white/Caucasoid horse nomads and would probably resemble the Scythians and Sarmatians in appearance, and also the Uyghurs would definitely leave a genetic imprint on later peoples of Mongolia; but the peoples of Mongolia after the collapse of the Uyghur empire up to present-day were not described as having Caucasoid traits (at least not that I know of) and Turkic tribes under the 13th-century Mongol confederacy like the Naiman, Kereyid, etc. were not outstanding in appearance from the rest of the other neighboring nomads (who were Mongoloid in racial type). Besides, if the Uyghurs were that Caucasoid, they would get a mention in the Chinese history annals (Chinese describe the Dutch, Portuguese, and other Europeans later on as so outstanding in appearance that they were compared to animals, ie cat-eyed, eagle-mouthed, red-haired, etc.), and also the Chinese annals also mention that the peoples to the west of the ancient Gaochang statelet (Turfan) had high nose bridge and deep-eye sockets, people beyond the Pamirs had high nose bridge and hairy skin (although hairy skin may not necessarily be a uniquely Caucasoid trait, depending on the degree of "hairiness"), and there were later accounts of "blue-appled" people in southern East Turkestan. There were mention of some of the Ashina ruling class of the Tujue like Sijin (Muchu Khan) having red-face and brown eyes, but then again, these features are not uniquely Caucasoid traits to begin with (the red-face may have been a result of possessing lighter skin and different levels of exposure to ultraviolet rays, and brown eyes are not uncommon among Mongoloids); however, I do not doubt a small minority of Tujue, like most other steppe nomads, may have picked up Caucasoid traits from Turkestan or other conquered foreign lands like in Persia and the Middle East, western Siberia, and steppe lands in Russia. In addition, the Uyghurs were not identified with nomads like the Yuezhi and the Scythians, who were described as Indo-European nomads and who have been linked to the Loulan mummies found in the Tarim Basin.
Most of Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes is about the Turkic peoples of 4th-12th centuries, that would be the best for you. It's colored plates show Xiongnu, Huns, Tujue, Uyghurs, Qïrghïz, Khazars, Pechenegs, Qïpchaqs, Avars, Bulgars (both from the Balkans and Volga), etc.
The title itself is misleading. I thought the book was about Attila and the European Huns; I didn't know it would cover the major Turkic peoples like Tujue, Uyghur, Huns, etc.
