Turkish Kördüðüm (Gordion Knot)

[ancalimon]

Kördüðüm: knot which is "very hard-impossible" to solve, a knot with neither a beginning nor an end, a complex situation in which deciding what to do is very hard.
Kör: Blind
Düðüm: Knot which is "hard" to solve

Is this word used in other Turkic dialects or languages spoken near them with a similar meaning? (I mean something like "blind tie")

Also from where does this KÖR comes from? Apparently it is not necessarily related with the "blind" meaning which is new for this word.


"Kör" today means blind in Turkish. But there are situations in which it's used with a different meaning within context. For example it may mean "something which is not able to cut : for example a dull sword (kör kýlýç)", or "insensitive", or "unaware" in different contexts. Or it may mean "kör talih": "unlucky;bad luck"

"Düðüm" today means "a knot" in Turkish (well; actually it means a knot which is hard to solve because a knot is called a "baðcýk"). My etymology dictionary says that it is related with Turkic düð (pronounced close to English "due") meaning "to tie" (probably also related with "dür" which means to roll) and düðme meaning "button (those that are knit on clothes)".

I also suspect that "düð" is also related with Turkic "TUÐ" which was related with "horse tail being tied" which was an old Turkic tradition. There are many Kurgans (graves) found in which horses are sacrificed their tails tied.

We also have a carpet found in Pazyryk Kurgan. And the knots on it are called Ghiordes Knot.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghiordes_knot


Here is something I found about the endless knot motive.
www.natvan.com/national-vanguard/117/aryans.html

And here about the carpets:
www.kilim.com/about_kilims/origins.asp


I think all of these concepts are related one way or another:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedean_point
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endless_knot
www.ka-gold-jewelry.com/p-products/gordian-knot-silver-big.php
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus

This is the thing related to my "musical research" which made me question this kördüðüm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_%28music%29

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Things that have nothing to do with each other.

Tugh is tought to have derived from the verb Tu- meaning "Close".

[ancalimon]

Yes. tuð comes from tu meaning close, block, plug, hold. It's conspicuously and clearly related with düð; thus düðüm. (Well... When you tie something and make it hard so that it can't be easily untied, you are actually closing, blocking, plugging the loop so that it holds)

Of course they come from different words. But it doesn't mean that those different words are not related and share the same root.

My question about kördüðüm is yet to be answered though.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

The problem is that, though you surely will deny it, Turkish Kör is a Persian loanword.

[ancalimon]

I know it's a Persian loanword. But I guess it's easy to see that kör (blind) seems to be related with göz (eye) and gör (see)

göz comes from kö

The thing is that kör is a Turkic loanword inside Persian as well. That's the extremely confusing part.