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Post by sarmat on Apr 22, 2010 6:55:02 GMT 3
I know. but there's no certainty that is inherently Slavic ever since. But is there any evidence of the contrary? So far we know that "mir" can only be trasnlated from Slavic. no it's obviously not Germanic as far as we can say at this point. but the Scythian and Hun language is only barely known at all, we wouldn't have a discussion about whether Scythians were Turkic or iranic if we had any certainty of their language except for some words, mostly names. i originally started this thread because of this theory that Franks (and possibly some more), or at least their ruling elite, were Sarmatians, not Germanic, therefore a Germanic origin of those -mir names can be ruled out pretty much anyways. Yeah, but that's the point "mir" is Slavic. Do we have any known cognates in Iranic or Turkic languages? I really would love to know that's to find out. it also needs to be found out why those supposedly Germanic cheiftains had such names. or why for example Attila has a clearly Gothic name? we should not forget that even Temujin had the name of a captured prisoner so why not assume Attila was named after a captured Goth (for example)? Yeah, if you makes this hypo why couldn't Goths be named with the names of captured Slavic chieftains, wouldn't that be natural based on the above pattern? but that's a premature conclusion. first, it's typically slavic now. like i've shown above, the first Bulgarian ruler with a -mir name is supposedly also the first Bulgarian ruler to have a slavic name. isn't that suspicious? Well. It's not that simple. "Mir" is just a part in the name. If you look at the names they as rule consist of the words from the same language. You can't see the names which are for example half Slavic half German or half Turkic half Slavic etc. There are no names like Slavoberg or Kriegmir etc. All the names you listed with "mir" for Croatian and Bulgarian rulers exclusively consist of Slavic words. I don't see the rule where people would for some reason take a root from a foreign language and incorporate it into their names which would have the other elements from their own language. So, I would say the names with "Mir" where, most likely, Germanic in origin or complitely adobted from some other languages, but not just the "mir" word was adobted and carved into some Germanic or Slavic name. on the Croatian ruler's list is also a certain Borna, which totally doesn't look slavic to me but actually close to the ancient version of my own first name. Borna name might be Germanic or something else. But that is a topic for another thread. also those -mir names appeared ratehr late. They are recorded rather late. We can't say for sure when did they appear first. there's also no real explanation why the Rurikids suddenly changed from Germanic to slavic names, even though it seems there was no change in dynatsy, though the last ruler with a germanic name was female (saint olga). No explanation? Not really getting this point. They were simply assimilating into Slavs, so did their names. Isn't that the explanation? that's not what i implied, actually i thought i already cleared that issue when i said Germanic Valdemar was adopted from slavic Vladimir, even though Valdemar DOES have a meaning in Germanic too (a different though). what i want to get at, is that those -mir names have a Steppe origin (Sarmatian or Hun). How come they have Steppe origin? Do we know any Sarmatian or Hun rulers with "mir" names to claim that? yeah i know, that's my main gripe here. it would be great to find out about earlier ruler names to get more hints and clues. in regards to Bulgarians, who can be traced rather far back, AND who do have a certain connection to Huns, it's easier. that, and the suspiciously numerous appearance of -mir names in Croatian, compared to other slavic languages, is a major hint for me that those -mir names likely have Steppe origin. But how did you make the conclusion about, particular,"numerous" apperance of "mir names" among Croatians? All the Slavs had them. Regarding Bulgarian rulers names. We, for example, know that name "Boris" is Turkic. But never there were theories about Turkic or other origins of "mir." that's just speculation at this point. there were also Russian Czars named Alexander, and Alexander is a popular name in many Slavic (and non slavic) languages now, but we can still trace it's place of origin to macedonia, which is curiously enough slavic too now. but IF those names would have a Steppe origin, it would be difficult to proove that nowadays. But Alexander is not a Slavic name. It can't be translated using Slavic words. No way ! Unlike all the "mir names." of course i'm speculating here too, but i think that's a convincing hypo. Unfortunately, I don't see anything convincing here there's nothing like "Baltic Slavs", Western Slavic tribes like Obodrites are commonly called "Baltic Slavs" Baltic people are Baltic speakers and those Western Slavs in Eastern Germany DID had Steppe influence, as a) there was a major find of a Scythian artefact on the Saxon-Polish border (the famous "fish") Are there any other indications of the major Steppe influence except one artefact? There are thousands of Arab artefacts found in Sweden? Does it mean that Sweden was under strong middle Eastern influence? That artefact could get there by trade with travelers or any other means. We can't draw such far fetched conclusions based on only one find. and b) Serbians (Sorbs), linguistically related to Croatians, lived there too, and the White Croats didn't lived so far away either. All the Slavs are linguistically related. No one needs to prove that.
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Post by sarmat on Apr 22, 2010 7:17:02 GMT 3
While doing additional internet research I found this: www.ancestry.com/facts/Miro-name-meaning.ashxCatalan (Mir~{(.~}): from the medieval personal name Mir, Mirone, of Germanic origin. boards.ancestry.com/surnames.mir/3/mb.ashxThe Mir name is an Old Catalan name It pre-dates Charlemage ,,The name Mir came from the Germanic tribe that invaded South France and Northern Spain (CATALONIA) area! Hmmm... The German tribe that invaded Catalonia was Goths. In fact, Catalonia means nothing lest then "Gotho-Alania" I know you'll like that, Babur :-) I wonder why there is no any additional explanation for the meaning of the name ? May be mir is still just a variation of Germanic "mar" ?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 22, 2010 10:43:54 GMT 3
Babur, it is still not fully attested that Attila's name is Gothic; it can also be Turkic as well (Ätil) - nothing certain yet.
Sarmat, you asked if the -mir particle exists in Turkic. I don't remember any.
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Post by sarmat on Apr 22, 2010 16:06:39 GMT 3
Attila in a form of Atil or Adil sounds totally Turkic to me.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 24, 2010 0:43:59 GMT 3
Ätil is a Turkic word already. Mahmud of Kashghar (11th century) gives it in his Turkic-Arabic dictionary and translates it as "River". Appearently, this word was one of the numerious terms used for rivers in Old Turkic.
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Post by Temüjin on Apr 25, 2010 22:57:14 GMT 3
How come they have Steppe origin? Do we know any Sarmatian or Hun rulers with "mir" names to claim that? Balamir, and possibly Marcomir. that's the basis for my pursuit form the beginning. if it is indeed true that some Germanic tribes were ruled by Sarmatians. trade already is Steppe influence. besides, archaeology also foudn numerous scythian arrowheads in the area of Germany. like Caesar later said about Gauls & Germans, ancient Greek authors said that the Rhine was the border between Celts & Scythians and they must have been in constant warfare accordign to the arrowheads. there's also this well-known depiction of a Frankish Cavalryman with a 'Draco' Standard. previously there wasn't much thought given tot his, but if we considder the draco standard as typical for Steppe Nomads, then that is an interesting hint toward the Sarmatian theory. there's also draco head found at Niederbieber, Germany, one of only two surviving actual standards (the other being the famous wolf's head standard from Kazakhstan). since it's known that also Rome has adopted this standard, scholars before haven't given much thought to this and simply assumed Germanic people have adopted this standard, also because they sometimes fought as allies, like in the Marcomanni wars. the problem is, this particular piece doesn't look so much like a wolf's head, like that from kazakhstan and those depicted on the Trajan's Column. since it was called 'draco' standard by the Romans, people always assumed this to be a dragon, also the draco from Niederbieber doesn't look much like a Wolf's head and can be interpreted as a dragon because it looks more like a serpent. there's alsoa draco standard on the famous bayeux tapestry, depictign the battle of Hastings. Kign Harold is seen with one: this one probably became the pattern for the Dragon of Wales.
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Post by Temüjin on Apr 25, 2010 23:13:49 GMT 3
Babur, it is still not fully attested that Attila's name is Gothic; but the only attested name we got, Attila, clearly IS Gothic. i don't know why this is constantly questioned, i mean the only real basis to suggest that the Huns spoke a proto-turkic language are the names of his sons. so why would we assume his son's names are genuine when even his name isn't? besides, we also have the Balamir complicacy, which obviously isn't a Turkic name either. if we're strict, there's no evidence of Turkic names before Attila's sons, which in turn can mean the Huns only became Turkic later, like the Rurikids adopted Slavic names (if we assume this theory). also the "sword of mars" ceremony is definately Sarmatian in origin, as is the deformation of skulls. the name Attilus for example is a common Roman name and similar names are attested for the Greek city states on the northern black sea shore long before the Huns arrived.
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Post by sarmat on Apr 26, 2010 3:29:29 GMT 3
But isn't "Atil" clearly a Turkic root?
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Post by sarmat on Apr 26, 2010 3:34:18 GMT 3
Regarding the "mir" stuff. Your "Sarmatian" theory needs much more solid ground. I think it's quite plausible that "mir" was just Germanic or Slavic at best.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 26, 2010 12:06:04 GMT 3
Good point. The earliest depiction of these "draco" standarts dates back to the time of Alexander the Great, when the Scythians fighting with him were described as using these.
But perhaps the Romans heared Attila's name via the Goths who used their own version. Besides, we have many more Turkic names used by the Hun nobility before Attila's sons (such as Mundzukus [*Bončuq], Uldiz [*Yulduz], Atakam [*Ata Qam], Eskam [*Äš? Qam], etc).
To my knowledge, it is.
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 28, 2010 6:32:20 GMT 3
Came across this... about -mir "Early Croatian Given Names" www.s-gabriel.org/names/walraven/croat/"Polish Given Names in Nazwiska Polaków" www.s-gabriel.org/names/walraven/polish/What's interesting is in the Slavic names there's both -mir for men and -mira for women. But digging through www.s-gabriel.org/names/ for Gothic names the -mir/-mer ending is only found on male names. Furthermore this site: web.archive.org/web/20071211012609/http://www.geocities.com/yeshua666/gothnames.html lists the ending on the Gothic names as -mers. Then there's this technical article www.thefreelibrary.com/Names,+derivational+morphology,+and+Old+English+gender-a0194473131 that talks about first and second elements (deuterotheme) in Old English/Germanic naming and how oftentimes the deuterotheme would be gender-specific, meaning that a woman's name would end with -hild, -burg, but not -wulf. But notice that in the Slavic names, the deuterotheme is the same in both male and female names, but inflected (+a) for feminine gender. Interesting. Perhaps the -mir ending in the Slavic names is not the same -mir ending in the Germanic names. They only look the same.
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 28, 2010 6:51:42 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 28, 2010 12:40:48 GMT 3
Thank you for the links
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Post by ALTAR on Apr 28, 2010 23:33:27 GMT 3
What about Iceland Sagas? They were mentioned about Atilla too. Guys, Do you have any extra information about it?
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Post by sarmat on Apr 28, 2010 23:53:12 GMT 3
Yes, Attila is called Atli in Icelandic Volsunga Saga. Basically, the story line is very similar to "Nibelungs." You can read the whole sage here: omacl.org/Volsunga/
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