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Post by sarmat on Mar 18, 2010 21:32:19 GMT 3
that is most interesting, because Burgundy also appears in the Nibelungen Saga, alognside the Huns under Attila, who is called "Etzel" there. oh yeah, i've forgotten about Vladimir etc. so well, Russia is included as well it seems. even if the -mir ending is eastern germanic, what is it supposed to mean then? Yeah, actually, if remember correctly, there was an Eastern branch of Burgunds that lived near Azov Sea (Maeotian marches ) that later was assimilated into Alans. I think Byzantine historian Zosimus wrote about that.
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 18, 2010 21:45:11 GMT 3
"Etzel" is a late High German sound change. The name is "Atli" in Icelandic. It shows that the story predates the sound change.
Balamber's existence is questionable. Jordanes could have made him up, and we know that he was Gothic so the name ending could just be Gothic.
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 18, 2010 21:50:29 GMT 3
but is -mir ending typical for gothic either? no visigoth ruler has that, nor any other germanic tribe unless we believe Marcomir was real. a typical Gothic name ending would be -ila, like Wulfila, Totila, and well, Attila. and i see no reason why Balamir's existence is questioned. that' basically just an excuse because no one can explain his name. but the similarity between balamir and the ostrogoth ruler Valamir is interesting.
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 18, 2010 21:55:56 GMT 3
Have you guys ever heard of "Johansson Inger E." from the old Usenest history groups? She was some sort of armchair historian from Sweden who studied Goths, wrote a bunch of stuff...
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Post by sarmat on Mar 18, 2010 22:14:32 GMT 3
Ok, "mirg" means pleasant, agreeble in Old English. Doesn't "mir" also mean "me" in German?
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 18, 2010 22:40:50 GMT 3
yeah it means me (possesive), but i don't see how that would be part of a name. also, Marcomir and Balamir (if they existed) predate the first ostrogoth ruler by almost hundred years, who coincidentaly was also called Valamir...
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Post by sarmat on Mar 18, 2010 23:03:17 GMT 3
Yeah, that's interesting indeed. Actually, I don't see anything strange in a theory that it has Slavic conncection. Goths melted with Slavs and Sarmatians in Cherniakhov culture, so it would be natural if some of their names had Slavic roots.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 19, 2010 1:24:04 GMT 3
Here is a quote from the book of Vernadsky that actually quoted before in Osthgothic thread:
While some of the Slavic tribes were conquered by Hermannaric, others were subject to Goths long time before. Generally speaking, the close relationship between the Goths and the Slavs in southern Russia, lasted for about two centuries, from the end of the second to the last quarter of the fourth century. Not surprisingly, the words of Gothic origin appeared in the Slavic language and vice versa. Following Slavic words are considered to be the origin of the Gothic: [172] "Kniaz", from the Gothic Kuni ( "clan elders"); "peniazi" ( "money"), from the Gothic pannings, "polk" ( "the armed men, the unit"), from the Gothic volk; "shlem" from the Gothic hilms. On the other hand, Gothic "meki" ( "sword") can be deduced from Anto-Slavic "mech". The corresponding German word - Schwert. Ante swords are mentioned in "Beowulf" [173]. Also many Gothic kings and princesses have names that sound more Slavic than Teutonic [174]. Hermanaric's heir name was Vitimir, his grandson was named Vidimer. Vidimer's brother's name was Valamir (compare. Slavic name Velimir). Later the same process of Slavicization of personal names applied to the Scandinavian rulers of Russia (the ninth and later centuries). The first Norman princes were of Scandinavian names, such as Rurik, Oleg, Igor. Igor's son, however, adopted a Slavic name Sviatoslav (reigned 964-72).
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 19, 2010 12:46:47 GMT 3
Very interesting things I read here
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Mar 20, 2010 10:28:36 GMT 3
Interesting. btw 'mir' is dative.
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 21, 2010 17:32:54 GMT 3
so does -mir ending exist in Iranian names? does mir mean anything in Iranian?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 21, 2010 22:11:28 GMT 3
In Classical Persian, Mīr is the shortened form of Arabic Amīr, but this is of course not a valid example of the existence of such a word in other Iranic languages
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Post by sarmat on Mar 22, 2010 3:46:50 GMT 3
Slavic connection is just the most plausible and natural if 'mir' wasn't Eastern Germanic. I don't know any Scytho-Sarmatian names with that root.
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 22, 2010 5:59:46 GMT 3
What if it wasn't -mir? What if it was like Scandinavian/Old Norse first person singular nominative case -R, which turned into -ur in Icelandic? Asgardr, Grimnr, etc. I don't know enough about eastern germanic. Icelandic r was in some instances from Germ. r, more often from Proto-Norse R, Germ. z. In the Norse runic alphabets r and R were represented by distinct runes. R became r by about 1000. Before that time R was readily assimilated to adjacent point or blade consonants.
R occurred only in the pre-literary period and later became identical with r. It originated from Germanic z and its pronunciation in the pre-literary period is difficult to determine. Possibly the development was from z to r-coloured z, to palatalized r, and then to trilled r.
- E.V. Gordon's An Introduction to Old Norse From wikipedia, a strong declension first person singular noun gets -z/s, equivalent to Old Norse -r. Also: "Proto-Germanic *z remains in Gothic as z or is devoiced to s. In North and West Germanic, *z > r. E.g. Gothic drus (fall), Old English dryre." *shrug* Maybe the Gothic of Jordanes was already assimilating into West Germanic from the few centuries earlier when Wulfias wrote.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 22, 2010 13:30:34 GMT 3
That -z/-r sound change in Germanic reminds me the same thing in Old Turkic.
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