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Post by chichak on Dec 10, 2009 19:31:26 GMT 3
I have not yet talked about two key events in the Hungarian ethnogenesis and an important aspect of archaeology: 1. Separation of the Ugric groups (or migration of the Ob-Ugrians) 2. The settling of Hungarians into the Volga-Kama region and contacts with the Permians 3. Archaeological heritage of the Ob-Ugrians from the time of their separation until the present.
I will be further elaborating soon.
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Post by ALTAR on Dec 15, 2009 23:47:00 GMT 3
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Post by sarmat on Dec 16, 2009 1:21:48 GMT 3
Unfortunately, dear Altar, this artice is pure illiterate nonsense.
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 16, 2009 9:42:30 GMT 3
Hehe I have a copy of that article already. It looks like someone's college thesis. I keep it for entertainment.
"Kovacs, a popular Hungarian surname, is probably the transcription of the ethnic designation Komo-hsi (庫莫奚). The respective correspondence in the sounds of Hungarian names Gyongyosi and Palfy with the Mongolian tribal names Ghongjila (光吉剌) and Balhu (巴爾虎) provides two more examples of the Mongolian elements in ancient Magyars."
The best part is where there's a supposed correspondence of sounds but the truth is the author doesn't even know how to pronounce Hungarian as evidenced by his reading of "gy" as a hard or soft "g" sound when it is neither!
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Post by sarmat on Dec 16, 2009 16:34:46 GMT 3
BTW, what is the origin of the last name Kovacs, to me it seems like coming from the Slavonic verb "to smith." Kovach basically sounds like a "blacksmith."
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 16, 2009 19:44:16 GMT 3
Yes, it is from slavic and means blacksmith. There's an earlier word for blacksmith that escapes me at the moment. It reflects the adoption of different blacksmithing techniques.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 16, 2009 21:48:13 GMT 3
"Kovacs, a popular Hungarian surname, is probably the transcription of the ethnic designation Komo-hsi (庫莫奚). That is not possible at all, because the Tang period pronunciation of Xi 奚 was, according to Bernhard Karlgren, *γiei, which was very probably the same people mentioned in 11th-12th century Iranian sources as Qay (which is also the same people mentioned in 8th century Turkic inscriptions as Tatabï).
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 16, 2009 23:18:14 GMT 3
Sarmat put it best: "pure illiterate nonsense"
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 17, 2009 8:11:03 GMT 3
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanu"Istanu (Ištanu; from Hattic Estan, "Sun-god") was the Hittite and Hattic god of the sun. In Luwian he was known as Tiwaz or Tijaz. He was a god of judgement, and was depicted bearing a winged sun on his crown or head-dress, and a crooked staff." *shrug*
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Post by chichak on Dec 17, 2009 8:41:07 GMT 3
True, it does say Istanu was the Hittitic sun-god, but notice how it has no reference, so one could search after details on the source.
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Post by chichak on Dec 17, 2009 9:30:12 GMT 3
I am not quite sure what the old Hungarian word for weapon-smith was, but the word "tárkány" is thought to be a Kabar Turkic word meaning smith, that enter the Hungarian language as a social title name. There is another word I know of "csiszár" meant weapon-smith at some point, but its main usage was to refer to sword chiselers as the word "csiszol" means to chisel (what a coincidence, I hope its just a similar onomatopoeic word rather than a Germanic borrowing ).
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Post by sarmat on Dec 17, 2009 17:55:23 GMT 3
I am not quite sure what the old Hungarian word for weapon-smith was, but the word "tárkány" is thought to be a Kabar Turkic word meaning smith, that enter the Hungarian language as a social title name. Strange, if "tarkan" meant "smith" in Kabar Turkic. It is actually an ancient Turkic word that does mean a high social title name.
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 17, 2009 21:19:51 GMT 3
It wasn't tárkány I saw. I thought it might have been the name Tibor I saw before. Anyway, I looked in Rona-Tas and he has ötvös. Do you have more info on csiszár? That's a name in my family (Slovak side). Rona-Tas pg. 357 "The position of craftsmen was special. Most of the ironmasters, implement and weapon makers must have entered the Carpathian Basin together with the conquering Magyars. As regards designations, only the Hungarian names ács 'carpenter' and szűcs 'furrier' are of Turkic origin. The former was a maker of sátors 'tents' and karós 'stakes', while the latter used a gyűszű 'thimble'. These are also Turkic loan words. The furrier was an expert in working with leather. The local Slavs gave blacksmiths (kovács), potters (gerencsér), weavers (takács), and turners (esztergályos), and the word konyár, of Slavic origin, suggests a horse-related occupation, while teszár worked with wood (See Ácsteszér). The Hungarian language borrowed these words from local Slavic craftsmen. This does not mean that these crafts were unknown to the conquering Magyars. A vasverő, literally, 'iron beater', had a different technique from the blacksmith; the csikós 'horseherd' and the juhász 'shepherd' (all names of Finno-Ugrian origin) worked in different animal-rearing systems from the konyár and the pásztor (names of Slavic origin). Thus, very often the old Magyar craft expressions were preserved, alongside a brand new craft lingo. The Hungarian ötvös 'smith' was an expert in iron forging (öttevény), yet he probably encountered new techniques and tools."
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 17, 2009 21:22:45 GMT 3
True, it does say Istanu was the Hittitic sun-god, but notice how it has no reference, so one could search after details on the source. That's why I shrugged
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 18, 2009 22:32:04 GMT 3
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