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Post by Subu'atai on Dec 17, 2008 11:28:57 GMT 3
Well, we all know they worshipped Tengri But who else? There's this "Chinglu" Chinese translation floating around, wondering if ne one have any sources of an Altaic translation. Hun = Human = Xiongnu, Chinglu =  = Now it's VERY possible that Chinglu / Tengri are the same thing. Sheez did every single foreign historian suffered hearing problems. Freakin' Persians called Tengri Aspandiat!!!  Ne help would be appreciated in regards to other Hunnic dieties btw  |
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Post by Subu'atai on Dec 17, 2008 12:06:50 GMT 3
And another thing, the sword of Mars - Attila's sword. Mars = Roman War God. Which Tengriist diety fits into this "War God" placeholder?
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Post by Temüjin on Dec 17, 2008 19:51:25 GMT 3
the sword of Mars thing was an original Scythian/Sarmatian custom.
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Post by sarmat on Dec 17, 2008 20:03:59 GMT 3
Yes. It has clear parallels with Alan mythology which even influenced the epic of king Arthur.
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Post by Subu'atai on Dec 17, 2008 21:12:25 GMT 3
What was the Scythian/Sarmatian War God called? =/
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Post by sarmat on Dec 17, 2008 21:55:52 GMT 3
We don't know the exact name that was used by Ancient Scythian and Sarmatians. Roman historians described the worship of the God of war symbolized in sword stuck into dirt as the strongest cult among Sarmatians. Apparently they equalized Sarmatian God with Mars, as Greeks and Romans did.
There are too variants of his name which can be derived from the survived Alan epic and popular mythology: etiher Batraz or Uastyrdzhi.
Most likely it's Batraz, this character seems to have more ancient origin.
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Post by Subu'atai on Dec 17, 2008 22:01:47 GMT 3
Batraz it is, thanks for this, it's really much appreciated. Little details like this is really hard to find. |
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Post by Bor Chono on Dec 18, 2008 4:25:48 GMT 3
Every god is a god of war!
The Hurmasta Tengri of Halha Mongols can battle with Milyan Tengri of Oirat Mongols. Ofcourse Turkish Ulgen Tengri also can join the battle! You see...battle field is a messy place! But every messenger dies because of Erlig khaan=(Mongol Turkic Lord of Hell ;D )
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Post by Subu'atai on Dec 18, 2008 13:19:17 GMT 3
Yes but this is centuries prior, is there exactly a Tengri who is more a sword-diety then the sky-diety?
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Post by ALTAR on Dec 18, 2008 17:27:06 GMT 3
I think it was Wolf.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 18, 2008 18:25:00 GMT 3
I never saw an evidence for that. We see wolf as a symbol of the later High Carts (Gaoche 高車) and Türüks (Gök Türks, Tujue 突厥). |
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Post by ALTAR on Dec 18, 2008 19:55:42 GMT 3
Maybe, I don't know. I just wondered on is it mentioned in any sources or some hint of it? I never saw an evidence for that. We see wolf as a symbol of the later High Carts (Gaoche 高車) and Türüks (Gök Türks, Tujue 突厥).
Origin of The Turks From Chinese Annals
"The ancestors of the Türks lived to the west of the Western Sea. They constitute an independent tribe. No doubt they are a detached branch of of the Hsiung-nu. (the Huns) They belong to the A-shih-na clan. Later they were defeated by a neighbouring country which completeley exterminated their tribe. There was a boy aged ten. The soldiers, in view of his youth couldnot bring themselves to kill him. they cut off his feet and arms and threw him into a marsh. There lived there a she wolf who fed him with meat. As the boy grew up he had sexual intercourse with the wolf and made her pregnant. The king [who had earlier attacked the tribe], apprised of the boy being alive, dispatched someone to kill him. The messenger sawthe shewolf with the boy and wanted to kill her as well. But the wolf fled to a mountain north of the Kao-ch'ang.
In the mountain there was a cavern and in the cavern there was a plaincovered with rich vegetation, stretching over several hundreds of li and enclosed on its four sides by mountains. Therein the wolf took refuge and later gave birth to ten boys. The ten boys grew up and took wives from the outside. In front of the gate to the camp they placed a standard with a wolf's head on it, so as to show they had not forgotten their origins. Liitle by little they constituted several hundred families. Several generations later they came out from the cavern, a certain A-hsien-shih led the tribe out from the cavern and submitted to the Juan-Juan. They served as blacksmith to this."
From Denis Sinor, The legendary Origin of The Türks, Folklorica, Fetschrift J. Oinas. |
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Dec 20, 2008 14:58:40 GMT 3
The freaking Persian called it Aspandiat? is it related to that persian-linguality of Scythian thing?!  |
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Post by Bor Chono on Dec 21, 2008 5:57:20 GMT 3
Yes but this is centuries prior, is there exactly a Tengri who is more a sword-diety then the sky-diety? I ask you as a Mongol! Will you stab tsagaan sar uutsh? ;D |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 21, 2008 12:43:47 GMT 3
Origin of The Turks From Chinese Annals
"The ancestors of the Türks lived to the west of the Western Sea. They constitute an independent tribe. No doubt they are a detached branch of of the Hsiung-nu. (the Huns) They belong to the A-shih-na clan. Later they were defeated by a neighbouring country which completeley exterminated their tribe. There was a boy aged ten. The soldiers, in view of his youth couldnot bring themselves to kill him. they cut off his feet and arms and threw him into a marsh. There lived there a she wolf who fed him with meat. As the boy grew up he had sexual intercourse with the wolf and made her pregnant. The king [who had earlier attacked the tribe], apprised of the boy being alive, dispatched someone to kill him. The messenger sawthe shewolf with the boy and wanted to kill her as well. But the wolf fled to a mountain north of the Kao-ch'ang.
In the mountain there was a cavern and in the cavern there was a plaincovered with rich vegetation, stretching over several hundreds of li and enclosed on its four sides by mountains. Therein the wolf took refuge and later gave birth to ten boys. The ten boys grew up and took wives from the outside. In front of the gate to the camp they placed a standard with a wolf's head on it, so as to show they had not forgotten their origins. Liitle by little they constituted several hundred families. Several generations later they came out from the cavern, a certain A-hsien-shih led the tribe out from the cavern and submitted to the Juan-Juan. They served as blacksmith to this."
From Denis Sinor, The legendary Origin of The Türks, Folklorica, Fetschrift J. Oinas.Yes I know this But that's the legend of the Göktürks, not of the Huns. As you can see, the wolf was the totem of this people (the Uyghurs and High Carts have a similar legend). The Göktürks claimed descendency from the Huns of course, but we don't have an evidence to proove that the wolf itself was a totem of the Huns |
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