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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 11, 2008 23:58:07 GMT 3
hunsarecoming.oxyhost.com/orighunlang.htm"From this book of Uchiraltu, professor of Mongolian Studies College, Inner Mongolia University, the public readership, but also the scientific research workers, can get acquainted for the first time with the Hunnic words and expressions remained in the old Chinese sources." Does anyone know anything about this professor, arguments presented in this book, and peer review of this? I'm trying to measure this on the BS meter...
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 12, 2008 22:44:41 GMT 3
Never heard of both
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Post by keaganjoelbrewer on Dec 13, 2008 1:23:11 GMT 3
Nice work Maotun! =D
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 13, 2008 1:37:35 GMT 3
Yes, looking forward to it.
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 13, 2008 2:13:49 GMT 3
Do you know what these reconstructions of Xiongnu words from Chinese sources are based on? I don't understand "Hun seal inscription" causing a stir that it would be in Hunnic language. What language was expected? Spanish?
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 13, 2008 6:23:29 GMT 3
Let me be clearer. Modern Chinese may be able to read the symbols, but the pronunciation of Modern Chinese is quite different from Chinese spoken during that period. Do you know who's reconstruction of that Old Chinese pronunciation was used as the basis?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 13, 2008 11:58:31 GMT 3
Yes, there have been three major reconstruction versions: Bernhard Karlgren, Edwin G. Pulleyblank and Wang Li 王力. Most of the scholars who used reconstructions of older periods of Chinese pronunciation used Karlgren, because that is the oldest one. The others are newer compared to him.
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 14, 2008 4:05:28 GMT 3
Yes, there have been three major reconstruction versions: Bernhard Karlgren, Edwin G. Pulleyblank and Wang Li 王力. Most of the scholars who used reconstructions of older periods of Chinese pronunciation used Karlgren, because that is the oldest one. The others are newer compared to him. The newest is Baxter (1991). They have a copy at Stanford University Library and I was thinking of checking it out just for fun.... ;D
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 15, 2008 9:06:28 GMT 3
Maotun,
Would you consider translating this webpage (http://www.prherald.hu/cikk_print.php?idc=20080728-130823) and posting the results here (http://steppes.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=board20&action=display&thread=920)
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 16, 2008 6:56:20 GMT 3
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 16, 2008 7:28:27 GMT 3
Starostin has Maotun 冒頓 in Middle Chinese as ma^̀w tòn and in Old Chinese as mūh twǝ̄nh. *grin*
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 16, 2008 8:33:42 GMT 3
I've found the article mentioned of Schönig, Claus. 2003. "Turko-Mongolic Relations," The Mongolic Languages. Editor Juha Janhunen. Routledge Academical. Pages 403-419. I could only read a summary of it. You wrote that you've got a university library at hand in your place, maybe you can check this out. Looks like it is checked out.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 16, 2008 13:54:03 GMT 3
Thank you for the share
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 17, 2008 1:31:56 GMT 3
I've found some clue of two interesting theories about Xiongnu language: The first connects it to the Samoyedic, the other branch of Uralic family besides the Finn-Ugric languages. Pulleyblank has shown that the language of the Xiongnu - of which we possess some words and terms preserved in Chinese literature - was related to the Siberian ethnics (Samoyeds) in the River Yennisej area, and not to the Mongols or Turks, while the Hun hords of Attila that tried to conquer Europe were surely Proto-Turks. www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Altera/xiongnu.htmlThis was later altered from Samoyedic to Yeniseian on the above-mentioned Stratosin and Baxter Old-Chinese phonology, a related group of Siberia, and categorized as an areal group of Yenisey-Ostjak or Ket. This Ostyak is an areal rather than genetic term; in addition to the Yeniseian languages it also includes the Uralic languages Khanty and Selkup. It would be interesting to connect Xiongnu language to some Siberian or Uralic languages. I guess this theory needs some looking after. Maybe I'll. Lajos Ligeti was the first to suggest that the Xiongnu spoke a Yeniseian language. In the early 1960s Edwin Pulleyblank was the first to expand upon this idea with credible evidence. In 2000, Alexander Vovin reanalyzed Pulleyblank's argument and found further support for it by utilizing the most recent reconstruction of Old Chinese phonology by Starostin and Baxter and a single Chinese transcription of a sentence in the language of the Jie (a member tribe of the Xiongnu confederacy). Previous Turkic interpretations of the aforementioned sentence do not match the Chinese translation as precisely as using Yeniseian grammar. Vovin, Alexander. "Did the Xiongnu speak a Yeniseian language?". Central Asiatic Journal 44/1 (2000), pp. 87-104. What do you think about it, can it contain some truth? I simply don't buy into this theory. No way it can be true. The Huns were a Turkic people, as prooven by many ways. Actually we discussed this matter in detail in the "Hungarians" thread (the shorter one).
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 17, 2008 9:47:48 GMT 3
This was later altered from Samoyedic to Yeniseian on the above-mentioned Stratosin and Baxter Old-Chinese phonology, a related group of Siberia, and categorized as an areal group of Yenisey-Ostjak or Ket. This Ostyak is an areal rather than genetic term; in addition to the Yeniseian languages it also includes the Uralic languages Khanty and Selkup. Later altered? No. I think that's a misunderstanding by the Chinese website you cited. Pulleyblank's theory was always about Kettic/Yeniseian. I think the theory is interesting, but it is important to realize that it focuses upon the language spoken by one tribe within the Xiongnu tribal confederation, the Jie. It is problematic to extend this language to everyone else.
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