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Post by Temüjin on Oct 8, 2011 13:26:15 GMT 3
this would only be reasonable to believe if we assume that the ancient Huns spoke a form of Hungarian...
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Post by tuisku on Dec 6, 2012 20:34:12 GMT 3
Attila is Gothic, not Roman/latin version. compare to Wulfila, Totila. -ila is typical ending for Gothic names or Germanic names in general, for example in Swabian it's -le (you can check my family name at facebook), for Swiss it's -li, bavarians/austrians just -(e)l, or modern high German -lein also in gothic ata means father as well as in turkish so it is suggested that Attila means father, at least what his Germanic allies called him. middle-high-German Etzel (not with an �) is a "corruption" of Attila, not a different name altogether. such an ending like -ila is also typical in salvic langauges, to make something call small (not in a degradign way) or cozy (in a sympathic way). the point is, his name (or at least the germanic name) is something like at(a) + ila, not atil + a. I come from Finland and we have about hundreds of thousands names ending like "-la": both placenames, houses and people like Antila, Laurila, Ulvila(!), Suntila... Since we have also lots of Gothic loanwords like "sword = mikkja in Gothic = miekka in Finnish" and even "and = jah in Gothic = ja in Finnish". So, there has been definitely contacts between Goths and Finns possibly around those swordy times of Folkwanderung. However, one thing does not match: the "-la" ending is surely coming from "ala"-word which means "area, place". So, Antila = Antti's place, Ulvila = Ulf's place and it is a surename, not forename. So, maybe one should reconsider those Gothic diminutive endings... Particularly, since there are no such endings presently in any Germanic languages. I would be keen on seeing some dna-studies of buried Gothic soldiers carrying names ending with "-la"! |
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Post by Temüjin on Dec 6, 2012 21:01:11 GMT 3
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Post by massaget on Dec 6, 2012 21:18:27 GMT 3
Old hungarian form of the name Attila is Etele, it comes from the name of the river Etel (Volga)
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Post by Ardavarz on Dec 7, 2012 0:51:27 GMT 3
Such names with -la suffix can be found also amongst the Asian Huns who hardly have had any contact with the Goths. For instance: Khingila (Hunnic ruler in India, 5th century), Kujula Kadphises (founder of Kushan dynasty, 1st century).
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Post by Temüjin on Dec 7, 2012 1:03:18 GMT 3
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 7, 2012 2:38:20 GMT 3
Old hungarian form of the name Attila is Etele, it comes from the name of the river Etel (Volga) Actually it comes from a High German sound change that turned Attila into Etzele. |
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 7, 2012 9:18:50 GMT 3
Just to expand on this a little more, apparently the Attila name was Ezzilo in Old High German. The initial a changed into an e by Germanic umlaut ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_umlaut#I-mutation_in_High_German), which is like vowel harmony, and High German consonant shift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift#Phase_1) changed intervocalic -tt- into -zz- then -tz-. The final vowel was lost by Middle High German to get Etzel. Hungarians must have adopted the name as Etele before Middle High German, which leads to other, quite interesting questions... Edit: As an aside, I noticed that my eldest son tends to say something like Änglish instead of Inglish. He got this pronunciation from his Hungarian grandmother. It makes my linguistic heart laugh. |
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Post by ancalimon on Dec 7, 2012 10:09:14 GMT 3
I have heard that the name of the geography might have been "ATA ÝL" originally.
So maybe Attila < Ata Ýlli meaning "the man from Ata Ýl" or "the one who has Ata Ýl ~ The one who owns Ata Ýl"
Another possibility (a funny one I thought) is that he said his name was Ýli ~ Ýla and someone said to another one "his name is Ýli ~ Ýla" : Adý Ýla ~ Adý Ýli. ;D
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 7, 2012 12:15:23 GMT 3
There is also another theory (don't remember where I read it, unfortunately) that reconstructs Mihirakula as a combination of Iranic Mihr (Mithra) and Turkic -qulï ("slave of-") - a name similar to Täŋri Qulï (modern Turkish Tanrıkulu, a surname in Turkey), which is also parallel with the Islamic concept of 'Abd Allah عبد الله (also spelled Abdullah), "Slave of God".
It can not be, as the modern Turkish -li suffix was -lig in Old Turkic - if Attila's name contained that suffix, the Europeans who recorded Attila's name would not have bypassed it (similarly, Saadettin Gömeç has a theory that reconstructs Attila as Ata Illi).
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Post by massaget on Dec 7, 2012 12:42:16 GMT 3
hjernespiser : thats german bullnuts.. how on earth would we loan the word etele from the germans ??
The huns were surely known for ancestors of magyars before than the huns met the germans.
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 7, 2012 20:48:26 GMT 3
hjernespiser : thats german bullnuts.. how on earth would we loan the word etele from the germans ?? The huns were surely known for ancestors of magyars before than the huns met the germans. The name was so clearly ATTILA with the back vowels according to the various people who had actual physical contact with Attila and heard the Hunnic language. It's a back vowel in both the Latin and Greek written records and Germanic oral tradition, like the form Atli from a Germanic language which wasn't affected by the High German sound changes. Even the Hungarian Gestas use a back vowel form of his name. Please understand that this does not exclude the possibility that Hungarians knew of the Attila legend prior to Honfoglalas. That subject is still a matter of debate amongst experts. It just shows that the name Etele cannot be taken seriously as an original Hungarian name for Attila. |
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Post by Temüjin on Dec 7, 2012 22:50:31 GMT 3
There is also another theory (don't remember where I read it, unfortunately) that reconstructs Mihirakula as a combination of Iranic Mihr (Mithra) and Turkic -qulï ("slave of-") - a name similar to Täŋri Qulï (modern Turkish Tanrıkulu, a surname in Turkey), which is also parallel with the Islamic concept of 'Abd Allah عبد الله (also spelled Abdullah), "Slave of God". that's also possible. do you know the etymology of the word "miracle" as it sounds similar? hjernespiser : thats german bullnuts.. how on earth would we loan the word etele from the germans ?? The huns were surely known for ancestors of magyars before than the huns met the germans. of course your theory of goths corrupting the hungarian name for attila is more credible, since everyone knows old hungarians had a time machine to deliver their knowledge of the name, so goths still had time to "distort" the name of attila they just learned from hungarian time-travelers.....of course the goths didn't bothered to ask huns thesmelves, since they were neither contemporaries nor had any interaction with them as far as sources go... |
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Post by Ardavarz on Dec 8, 2012 1:10:45 GMT 3
Whether it is suffix or not is debatable, but the -a ending is there - it was just dropped in the later forms. This is a well attested change in the Iranian and Indo-Aryan languages during the transition from the ancient to the middle and new stages. For example: the ancient Iranian Mithra ("friend" - the god of contracts) becomes Mihr in Middle Persian and Mehr in modern Farsi (now meaning "friendship, love" and metaphorically - "sun", because Mithra was also a solar deity), while Sanskrit names like Rāma and Kumāra become Ram and Kumar in modern Hindi. Thus the Pashto kul (کول, "family") is actually an Indian loanword from Sanskrit kula (कुल) - "family, tribe, caste". Κοζουλου from the other hand is just Greek Genitive of the name which can be expected on a coin. As for the Chinese forms - they usually only approximate foreign names with the syllables available in the Chinese language. And mind that apart from the language changes through the ages all those are foreign renderings of the original Hunnic names, so they couldn't be always accurate. There is also another theory (don't remember where I read it, unfortunately) that reconstructs Mihirakula as a combination of Iranic Mihr (Mithra) and Turkic -qulï ("slave of-") - a name similar to Täŋri Qulï (modern Turkish Tanrıkulu, a surname in Turkey), which is also parallel with the Islamic concept of 'Abd Allah عبد الله (also spelled Abdullah), "Slave of God". Yes, I have thought about this too. It is quite possible since the "Saka Mithraism" (as Alisher Akishev calls it) was common for both Iranian and Turkic tribes in Central Asia. Another example is the Uighur Buddhist name Burxan Qulï - "servant of the Buddha" (= Skt. Buddhadāsa). I believe it may be possible that to the same type belongs also the Proto-Bulgarian Avitohol or Avitoholï (Àâèòîõîëú - the final "big Er" letter was actually pronounced in Old Church Slavonic) which could be explained as Abita Qulï - "servant of Amita" (i.e. of Amitābha Buddha as his name was pronounced Abita in Old Uighur). It was thought before that the "Pure Land" sect of Buddhism has developed in China, but recent archaeological findings show that the cult of Amitābha was present in the Kushan Empire as early as the time of king Huvishka who was indeed a contemporary of Avitohol (mid-2nd century according to the List). |
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Post by ancalimon on Dec 8, 2012 3:19:07 GMT 3
Do we have knowledge of the names of Goth generals in Atilla's army?
And
One thing I wondered for a long time. Why doesn't Vatican have any records regarding anything Hunnic? After all their pope spoke with Attila face to face.
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do you think i don't exist at present? 
