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Post by arnewise12 on Oct 30, 2008 0:05:13 GMT 3
why did there come a new turkic states in central asia after the mongol period, all the empires after the mongols except mughals and tmur lenks empire was weak and shattered, I mean they could have fought against the russians bolsheviks if theere was a tradition of unite among the peoples
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Post by ALTAR on Oct 30, 2008 11:55:24 GMT 3
After the collapse of Timurid Emprires, Turkistan was full of small Khanetes(Hiva, Bukhara, Khokand) and tribal confederations(Yamud Turcomans, Teke Turcomans, Krygyz and Qipchaqs etc.) They fought in each other because tribal and social life differences.
For instance Turcoman and Qipcahq tribes were rivals of Hiva and Bukhara Khanates. Tucomans and Qipchaqs were nomadic people unlikely Khanates are settled in the cities. There is always having conflicts btwn the nomads and settler people. Their identities were also different like Bukhara nd Hiva represents Uzbek Nation, others hold their own identity. There was no charismatic leader who can unite this separated khanates, tribes under a flag after Amir Timur Kuregen.
But there were some exceptions for this period.
Qenesary Khan(known as Qenesary Qasimoglu united nearly all Kazakh tribes(besides Ulu Cüz, they suppport Russian Invasion) against Russian Tsarist Empires Invasions and resisted them succesfully for 20 years.
Nurverdi Khan was the leader of Turkmens of Central Asia. He gathered also Turkmen tribes against Iran(Qachar Dynasty) and Russian Invasions.
However all of these fights ended with the defeat because of the tribal conflicts btwn Central Asian people and Russians had more modern and disciplined military than the Native peoples forces.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 30, 2008 22:28:35 GMT 3
Central Asia was conquered first of all because it was backward especially in the military field compare to the Russian Empire.
And also leaders which Altar listed were uniting only their own people while remaining bitter enemies with other Turkic states in the region.
The most hated enemies of Kenisary were not even Russians but Uzbek Emirs of Bokhara. He also made many expeditions against Kyrgyzs and massacred many of them. In the end, however, he was defeated and executed by Kyrgyz manaps.
Likewse Nurvedi khan was feared and hated by the other rulers of Turkestan.
Regardless of this, however, the main advantage of Russians as I said was the Western technology, so even united Turkic states of CE wouldn't have much chances against the Russian expansion.
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Post by arnewise12 on Oct 31, 2008 0:38:52 GMT 3
who is this nurverdi Khan, I have read turkmen history but I cant remember him at all, but thought Late turkmen history has many khans,
do u have any references
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Post by Temüjin on Nov 1, 2008 2:37:10 GMT 3
Central Asia was conquered first of all because it was backward especially in the military field compare to the Russian Empire. And also leaders which Altar listed were uniting only their own people while remaining bitter enemies with other Turkic states in the region. The most hated enemies of Kenisary were not even Russians but Uzbek Emirs of Bokhara. He also made many expeditions against Kyrgyzs and massacred many of them. In the end, however, he was defeated and executed by Kyrgyz manaps. Likewse Nurvedi khan was feared and hated by the other rulers of Turkestan. Regardless of this, however, the main advantage of Russians as I said was the Western technology, so even united Turkic states of CE wouldn't have much chances against the Russian expansion. thats not really true, Afghanistan was not much different technologically but British still failed miserably. the real reason was disunity amongst people of Turkestan and insufficient numbers.
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Post by atemurtas on Jan 2, 2009 22:21:14 GMT 3
Central Asia was conquered first of all because it was backward especially in the military field compare to the Russian Empire. And also leaders which Altar listed were uniting only their own people while remaining bitter enemies with other Turkic states in the region. The most hated enemies of Kenisary were not even Russians but Uzbek Emirs of Bokhara. He also made many expeditions against Kyrgyzs and massacred many of them. In the end, however, he was defeated and executed by Kyrgyz manaps. Likewse Nurvedi khan was feared and hated by the other rulers of Turkestan. Regardless of this, however, the main advantage of Russians as I said was the Western technology, so even united Turkic states of CE wouldn't have much chances against the Russian expansion. i am a turk from turkey and will introduce myself separately. in wikepadiea i think, not a great source, i read that caussaks (i may not have spelled right) were instrumental in russian expansion to siberia. and i understand that cuassaks are really kazaks that assimilated into russian identity? please comment.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 2, 2009 22:37:53 GMT 3
Greetings Atemurtas, welcome aboard The Cossacks were different from the Turkic Qazaqs (Kazakhs); the majority of Cossacks were Slavic, but they included Turkic elements and they were under partial Turkic-Steppe influence. Even their name is actually the same with Qazaq (Cossack is the Anglified version), which means "Free-wanderer".
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 3, 2009 15:29:01 GMT 3
It's all been disunity for centuries, with Timur crushing Tokhtamysh ending the Kipchak Khanate, all non-Yuan Khanates abandoning the dynasty to the Ming Chinese, Mongols fighting Turks, Turks fighting Mongols. Turks fighting other Turks, Mongols fighting other Mongols. Foreign ladies spreading their legs so wide by the time a few generations pass by we don't even know who the hell we are anymore. Well, we f***ed ourselves up quite good in the end I'm not going to be like someone from other nations who after being defeated put the blame of their own faiure on the enemy. To me that's weak, so the blame falls on us. The truth remains that united steppe has never been defeated, our enemies may have had superior technology, superior numbers, but we still prevailed. Our only real threat are ourselves. It's nothing to do with technology, if everything is that simple Tokhtamysh would never have succeeded in the siege of Moscow, Buryats would never have won in battle against the firearmed equipped invaders, nor would have the British failed against the Afghans. As for Cossacks - the first cossacks are indeed Altaic, that is a fact. But both the political and genealogical elements of the Cossack people became slavified over the centuries. Either way, they fought for themselves and their lands not for the Czars but their lands were inherited in the end after the civil war. It's also this fact that actually makes me understand why many nationalists worldwide despise marriage with foreigners. The Manchurian sinofication is also another similar factor. As for the disunity, it's just our way to fight amongst ourselves until a leader rises strong enough to rule the steppe. The Dzungar Khanate was rapidly modernising, with firearms and cannons, mounts that doubled as cover as well. But of course, they were disunited within themselves as well as facing Kazakhs, Manchus, and Halh Mongols. It has been centuries of bloodshed because no leader was strong enough to prevail in our traditional ritual of "challenging each other for pack leader" -> I against my brother, my brother and I against my cousin, my brother my cousin and I against the world. However, let's not wish for the past days of glory ne ways, would be want to become another America? another China? another Russia even? Superpowers themselves are despised as modern threats globally. Nay, let us just protect our peaceful culture and spirituality and as long as others leave us alone we'll be happy. And if we are to perish let us die on that peaceful note never on the 'inhuman barbaric bloodthirsty powerhungry animals' leave that title for our enemies to carry.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 4, 2009 1:11:48 GMT 3
So true
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 4, 2009 15:44:23 GMT 3
Hehe, I just drank a bit, and LOL dont get me started today on politics when I'm drunk. Though... On my bday I was gifted with a rare metal song, a song that spoke to me dearly. It was composed and sung by a German band Blind Guardian. This world is sacred. Nonetheless, listen to the lyrics, it's so applicable. rapidshare.com/files/153294624/Blind_Guardian_-_Sacred.mp3.htmlI'm not Turkic though my Russian grandmother considers herself Tatar by ethnic. However, either due to confusion or Russian propaganda she considers herself Mongol. Nonetheless, I feel the same pain when another steppe culture is under threat. I can't help that for some reason, and I don't understand why. Nonetheless I feel the need of our people to keep the candle lit amidst the storms. Impossible? To be Altaic is to achieve the impossible! Adversity bred our people, and adversity will keep our people alive to the very last breath! LONG LIVE THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE ETERNAL BLUE SKY AND MOTHER EARTH!!!!
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 5, 2009 3:42:50 GMT 3
Hehe ;D
I like Blind Guardian, they are a nice band (and I had been to their concert here in Ankara in Spring 2007).
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 5, 2009 6:43:52 GMT 3
I haven't even heard of them until that song o.O! Aye, they are, they know music very well, the majority of metal bands these days are... well, I can't say most of their tracks are good. Cept sometimes I get surprised, like from the band DOPE and the song: D. M. F. D. (If you know what it is hehe )
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