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Post by cataphract on Aug 4, 2008 19:38:42 GMT 3
Has somebody information on and good picures of the Kyzyl warrior frescoe's? I can't find anywhere a good clear picture of these frescoe's.
Thanks
Greetings
Cataphract
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 4, 2008 23:35:12 GMT 3
I only have this frescoe from Qyzyl, depicting Tokharian donors (6th-8th centuries AD), nothing else   |
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Post by cataphract on Aug 5, 2008 21:58:57 GMT 3
  Thanks for the image of the fresco. Number 6 on the second plate is the only picture I found of the Kyzyl warrior fresco. I hope somebody can help me in my search for better pictures of this fresco. I also like to learn more about the people depicted in this fresco. Who were they?, where did they live?, when did they live?, what armour did they use?,....... I'm also trying to find out which warrior(s) are depicted in number 1,2 and 3 on the first plate. Seems to me they were heavily armoured. Hope somebody can help me in my search Thanks Greetings Cataphract |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 5, 2008 22:30:51 GMT 3
Ah, I know that one, but I didn't know it was from Qyzyl   The first picture seems to depict Southern Siberian rock carvings, but I am not very sure. In the second one, number 1 might be Soghdians, but I also not sure of that. I could not recognise what number 2 is. Number 3 is a famous drawing found on a pot among the Nagyszentmiklós treasure; it might be Khazar, Bulghar, Pechenek or Magyar. Number 4 is from among the Turkic or Soghdian findings found in Yedisu (Semirechje). Number 5 is probaly some Mongol banners. Number 6 is depicting Tokharian or Uyghur warriors, as you said from Qyzyl. Number 7 ise from the mural paintings of the Goguryeo Kingdom in North Korea. I'm not sure of number 8, but it might from the Tarim Basin too. Number 9 seems to be a Turko-Mongol banner. Number 10 and 11 are Roman banners. |
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Post by cataphract on Aug 6, 2008 20:41:36 GMT 3
Ah, I know that one, but I didn't know it was from Qyzyl The first picture seems to depict Southern Siberian rock carvings, but I am not very sure. In the second one, number 1 might be Soghdians, but I also not sure of that. I could not recognise what number 2 is. Number 3 is a famous drawing found on a pot among the Nagyszentmiklós treasure; it might be Khazar, Bulghar, Pechenek or Magyar. Number 4 is from among the Turkic or Soghdian findings found in Yedisu (Semirechje). Number 5 is probaly some Mongol banners. Number 6 is depicting Tokharian or Uyghur warriors, as you said from Qyzyl. Number 7 ise from the mural paintings of the Goguryeo Kingdom in North Korea. I'm not sure of number 8, but it might from the Tarim Basin too. Number 9 seems to be a Turko-Mongol banner. Number 10 and 11 are Roman banners. Many thanks for the much better picture. The more I look at it, the more I tend to discover Xiongnu features (see Gorelik's artwork) in the armour depicted in the fresco.  -Vertical slat helmet as find in a Xianbei grave. Not the same model as in Gorelik's artwork, but certainly the same model as depicted in Ospey's 'Attila and the nomad hordes'. Can somebody tell me if the bird has a certain meaning? -Neck collar of vertical slats. -Solid upper (front and back) body armour (leather or iron?) in combination with a lamellar skirt or a large pelerine (only front) in combination with a coat of lamellar armour. Reaching almost certainly to the knees. I myself tend to go for the solid upper body armour with skirt. -Upper arm protection (leather or iron) of horizontal plates -Vambraces made of leather or iron. -Not much about any leg armour can be said as no details can be seen. If I'm right about the Xiongnu armour features, how can this be as the warriors in the fresco are certainly no Xiongnu themselves? Is the warrior on the horse covered with dots (small circles) entirely visible on the fresco? If so, has anybody a picture of this warrior? Can anybody say what the dots on the horse are? Can this be some kind of horse armour? Hope somebody can answer my questions Greetings Cataphract |
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Post by cataphract on Aug 6, 2008 21:46:56 GMT 3
Thanks for the image of the fresco. Number 6 on the second plate is the only picture I found of the Kyzyl warrior fresco. I hope somebody can help me in my search for better pictures of this fresco. I also like to learn more about the people depicted in this fresco. Who were they?, where did they live?, when did they live?, what armour did they use?,....... I'm also trying to find out which warrior(s) are depicted in number 1,2 and 3 on the first plate. Seems to me they were heavily armoured. Hope somebody can help me in my search Thanks Greetings Cataphract Ðèñ. III. Áàòàëüíûå ñöåíû ñ ó÷àñòèåì çíàìåíîñöåâ (ïåòðîãëèôû). (Îòêðûòü Ðèñ. III â íîâîì îêíå.) 1, 2 — ×àãàíêà, Àëòàé (ïî ×åðåìèñèíó); 3 — Æàëãûç-Òîáå, Àëòàé (ïî Êóáàðåâó); 4, 6 — Åøêèîëüìåñ, Êàçàõñòàí (ïî Ìàðüÿøåâó, Ãîðÿ÷åâó); 5 — Ñàðûáóëàê, Êàçàõñòàí (ïî Ìåäîåâó). This is the text which belongs to plate number 1. As I don't speak any Russian, I can't read which warriors are depicted on the plate. That's why I would like to ask if there's somebody who wants to translate the text for me please. Many thanks Greetings Cataphract |
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Post by cataphract on Aug 6, 2008 22:00:42 GMT 3
Thanks for the image of the fresco. Number 6 on the second plate is the only picture I found of the Kyzyl warrior fresco. I hope somebody can help me in my search for better pictures of this fresco. I also like to learn more about the people depicted in this fresco. Who were they?, where did they live?, when did they live?, what armour did they use?,....... I'm also trying to find out which warrior(s) are depicted in number 1,2 and 3 on the first plate. Seems to me they were heavily armoured. Hope somebody can help me in my search Thanks Greetings Cataphract This is the article (see link) in which the 2 plates can be found. Each plate comes with a small text describing the seperate numbers depicted on the plate. As I don't speak any Russian, I can't read which warriors are depicted on plate 2 (figure III in the article). That's why I would like to ask if there's somebody who wants to translate the small text belonging to figure III for me. Many thanks Greetings Cataphract |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 7, 2008 22:01:41 GMT 3
Well, it now seems clear that the warriors of Central Asian steppes, Turkistan, Southern Siberia, Northern China and Korea used that type of neck armor for a very long time, stretching from the Asian Hunnic (Xiongnu) period to the 8th-9th centuries. Birds are a typical feature of steppe animal style art  |
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Post by aca on Aug 14, 2008 11:55:03 GMT 3
Translation
"Pic III. Battle scenes with the participation of sign-bearers (open pic III in a new window); 1,2 - Chaganka, Altay (acording to Cheremisin); 3 - Zhalgiz Tobe, Altay (acording to Kubarev); 4,6-Eshkiolmes, Kazakhstan (acording to Maryashev, Goryachev); 5-Saribulak, Kazakhstan (acording to Medoev)"
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