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Post by aca on Sept 25, 2006 16:31:08 GMT 3
Bawirsaq: Baron Ungern was not russian. And he did not care russians at all. What I know, he had no good opinions of them. He was Russian, as Russian as Pushkin (Ethiopian origins), Lermontov (Scottish origins), Ermolov (Turkic origins), and many other high-ranking tsarist Russians with non-Russian origins (even Ivan the Terrible). "Russian" is not an ethnicity with common origins, it is a nation, an imperial nation which was based on the devotion to the tsar and the Russian empire. So was Ungern. He was fighting for the imperial Russia and was one of the only "whites" who demanded the restoration of the tsardom. Oh, Ivan the Terrible wasn't a Russian? I didn't know that. What was he?
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Sept 25, 2006 17:04:07 GMT 3
Bawirsaq: Baron Ungern was not russian. And he did not care russians at all. What I know, he had no good opinions of them. He was Russian, as Russian as Pushkin (Ethiopian origins), Lermontov (Scottish origins), Ermolov (Turkic origins), and many other high-ranking tsarist Russians with non-Russian origins (even Ivan the Terrible). "Russian" is not an ethnicity with common origins, it is a nation, an imperial nation which was based on the devotion to the tsar and the Russian empire. So was Ungern. He was fighting for the imperial Russia and was one of the only "whites" who demanded the restoration of the tsardom. Well, for me russian is ethnicity. Ungern did not join to "White Alliance" in Russia Civil War. Well, he wanted Romanovs back, but I wonder would that country been russians control actually...Remember that Romanovs were not ethnically russians. that's why most of them were better for Finns than russians.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 25, 2006 22:07:28 GMT 3
Ahem guys, maybe we should not go very off-topic
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 26, 2006 7:58:33 GMT 3
besides russians there were russian educated mongol governers and their liutenants to work for russian interests. Mongol looking, mongol speaking russian devils were running Mongolia. Not in my family! ;D btw I also have my grandfather`s father photo! -He doesn`t look Russian! believe me!
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Oct 20, 2006 0:32:40 GMT 3
offtopic:Oh, Ivan the Terrible wasn't a Russian? I didn't know that. What was he? Golden Hordian from his mother's side. Ivan's mother Elena Glinskaya came from a powerful Gliński (Hlinsk) family in Lithuania that claimed descent from the legendary Mamai, military commander of Golden Horde who was defeated by Russians in the Battle of Kulikovo and who's son escaped to Lithuania. From his father's side, Ivan was a member of Rurik dynasty, that traced its ancestry to Rurik, a Varangian (Viking) ruler of Novgorod.
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Oct 20, 2006 3:07:11 GMT 3
offtopic:Oh, Ivan the Terrible wasn't a Russian? I didn't know that. What was he? Golden Hordian from his mother's side. Ivan's mother Elena Glinskaya came from a powerful Gliński (Hlinsk) family in Lithuania that claimed descent from the legendary Mamai, military commander of Golden Horde who was defeated by Russians in the Battle of Kulikovo and who's son escaped to Lithuania. From his father's side, Ivan was a member of Rurik dynasty, that traced its ancestry to Rurik, a Varangian (Viking) ruler of Novgorod. Sorry, but... Rurik was not Varangian but Varjag. Varangians were ancestors of Finnish tribe Kvens. Varjags were swedes. And Rurik ruled Kiev, not Novgorod.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Oct 20, 2006 4:44:50 GMT 3
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Oct 20, 2006 14:26:54 GMT 3
Oh you are right about Rurik... His successors moved capital to Kiev. But Varangian is not same as varjag. Varangians=Kvens (Finns) from Arctic Sea (now occupied by Russia and Norway) Varjags=swedes from Roslagen area
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Oct 22, 2006 13:35:26 GMT 3
Scandinavians who rulled Russia are called "Varangian" in English, and "Varyag" in Russian.
If you don't believe me, try searching for "Rurik" on the Internet and see for yourself.
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Oct 22, 2006 18:19:47 GMT 3
Scandinavians who rulled Russia are called "Varangian" in English, and "Varyag" in Russian. If you don't believe me, try searching for "Rurik" on the Internet and see for yourself. Oh sorry, those are really called to varangians. Well, I thought that you meant people from Varang (Kvens):
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Post by Saran on Nov 5, 2006 11:48:13 GMT 3
Anyway, let us stick to the topic - the origins of the Khalkha Mongols. you are right let stick to the topic. I'll continue what i translated from Mongolian sites. ... - Daldan hundlun received 2 foreign clan of Tangud and Sartuul tribes as his possession. Sartuuls are the descendants of Artisans from Central Asia (Qwaresm) moved to Mongolia by Chinggis Khaan after Fall of Qwaresm. As Sartuul became more Mongolian, Dayan Khaan included into Khalkha Mongol formation. Sartuuls became loyal to Mongol clan unlike Tanguds (descendants of Xia Xia-Hashin oron) who immigrated to South during internal war between Mongol khans- unrest of ZasagtKhan. Sartuuls were always governed by sons of Daldan Hundlun who is Borjigon (All Mongolian aritsocrats-taiji are from Chinggis' Khaan's line- Khiyad Borjigon clan). Today Sartuul Khalkhas are in sginificant number and divided into 22 subclans which dwell on Zavkhan province. ... Here's a little info on Sartuuls, my grandma's a Sartuul
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Post by illumji on Aug 29, 2007 8:40:25 GMT 3
the russians considered us Mongols like the USA considered the native Indians tried to put us on "reservations" and eventually wipe us out, but they were not succesful
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 31, 2007 3:28:17 GMT 3
Hello illumji, welcome aboard
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Post by illumji on Aug 31, 2007 23:11:02 GMT 3
Thank you, it's nice to find a place with my own kind...
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Post by tuguldur on Sept 14, 2007 19:17:55 GMT 3
Kazaks suffered from the Soviet-Russian colonization no less than Mongols (perhaps more) You forgetting Mongolia is surrounded by 2 super powers (Russia, China). You also have to remember how many fled/died during the 200 years of Manchurian Control and under communist rule in the 20th century. To be honest I don't know much about kazaks but it was said during the the 1920-30's more then 1000's buddhist temples were destroyed in Mongolia, probably all the buddhist monks were murdered and still today they find remains. To answer the original posters question. Does it really matter if khalkha mongols don't speak chinggis's mongol? English people don't speak Shakespeare English. All languages evolve and change! The Chinnggis Mongol language is not the same as previous (2000 year old) Mongol language. The old mongolian script was not created by Mongolians, the origins come from Hebrew (Jewish) and passed onto Turkic > Mongolia. This doesn't mean Turk and Mongols write in Hebrew. The moral of the story is don't worry about these things.
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