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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2006 20:17:52 GMT 3
Let us talk about the Oirat Khanate. When was it founded? When did it cease to exist? Does anyone have a list of their rulers? Which territories did they control? Thank you  |
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Post by nemesis on Sept 24, 2006 6:34:35 GMT 3
ceased to exist 1757. To be more specific, after Amarsanaa rebelled against Davaach khan, he joined Ching empire and spearheaded the initial attack. When he was conspiring against the Manchus, someone leaked his plans and he escaped. After a couple of years of hit-and-run conflict his forces were reduced to few hundred and he again escaped to Russia to seek help. His return promised certain victory to the rebels and Manchus slaughtered everyone who participated or might have in the rebellion. 1 to 2 million poeple were killed or enslaved and the state incorporated into Manchus rule.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 24, 2006 21:01:12 GMT 3
Thank you nemesis.
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 25, 2006 4:18:43 GMT 3
1 to 2 million is quite huge number for any of Mongols. After war with Kazaks, Djungars lost their teritory & travelled back to present Mongolian teritory. They didn`t ask for help(=maybe they didn`t wanted to be a servents) they just used force, to claim the land. There was no other choice for Halha, just to unite with Hamnigan-Tsahar Mongolian Union (=known as Manchu). Manchu promised to protect the Religion(=btw Oirads were burning Buddist temples) & reclaim the land back.
Oirats could help Buryat Mongols against Russians, but they didn`t. They even asked for cannons from Russian Tsar in their heroic battle agaist Manchu union.
The problem is they always stood in wrong side : Ching & Russia.
Many blame Manchu but Manchu(=Nomad) managed to destroy Ching!=I think that the point.
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Post by nemesis on Sept 25, 2006 5:42:14 GMT 3
1 to 2 million is quite huge number for any of Mongols. After war with Kazaks, Djungars lost their teritory & travelled back to present Mongolian teritory. They didn`t ask for help(=maybe they didn`t wanted to be a servents) they just used force, to claim the land. There was no other choice for Halha, just to unite with Hamnigan-Tsahar Mongolian Union (=known as Manchu). Manchu promised to protect the Religion(=btw Oirads were burning Buddist temples) & reclaim the land back. Oirats could help Buryat Mongols against Russians, but they didn`t. They even asked for cannons from Russian Tsar in their heroic battle agaist Manchu union. The problem is they always stood in wrong side : Ching & Russia. Many blame Manchu but Manchu(=Nomad) managed to destroy Ching!=I think that the point. my friend, you have a very low knowledge on this topic I am afraid. You sound like one of those red russia infected communist era brain washed non functional brain-dead middle school teacher to be honest or should I call you an agent of covert operation pretending to be an innocent imposter?? 1 to 2 million is quite huge number for any of Mongols. After war with Kazaks, Djungars lost their teritory & travelled back to present Mongolian teritory. They didn`t ask for help(=maybe they didn`t wanted to be a servents) they just used force, to claim the land. There was no other choice for Halha, just to unite with Hamnigan-Tsahar Mongolian Union.Jungarian population were slaughtered regardless of gender, age, whatsoever and the survivors were hit by plague. People were hiding in forest, inaccessible mountain passes and anywhere to survive but no avail. All dead and forgotten till this day. I know what I am talking about because I am descended from Jungar people. You have absolutely no idea about them. Please, do not post anything unless you have a slightest idea about what you are talking. These people who reading all your non-sense might get wrong idea about mongolian or XVII century steppe history. Go and get yourself a decent book on history and you shall have something to share here. Personal opinions dont matter here, only facts and healthy judgement would elevate our position in life. I dont wanna hear someone's emotional outburts and pathetic stories you, all agree with me right? The problem is they always stood in wrong side : Ching & Russia.
Many blame Manchu but Manchu(=Nomad) managed to destroy Ching!=I think that the point.Zurchid tribes allied with the Chahar took Ming dynasty capital Beijing and Zurchids called their new country "Manchu". Later emperors changed the state name to "Jing" or "Ching" dynasty. Bor Chono you were trying to say that "Manchu managed to destroy Ming!=I think that the point". You certainly dont know what in the hell was going on at that time. You even switched the dynasty names and tribe names and time and places. Illogical and misinformed for sure. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 25, 2006 9:21:43 GMT 3
Please do not insult any members of this forum, especially members of the Staff.
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Post by nemesis on Sept 26, 2006 2:30:46 GMT 3
i can go on and on but I must act accordingly.
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 26, 2006 7:45:21 GMT 3
Please do not insult any members of this forum, especially members of the Staff. Mighty Qaghan! I can handle that!  Leave it to me!  |
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 26, 2006 7:56:26 GMT 3
Maybe I don`t know about Djungarian history much  , I hope Kazak members have more to say! (btw I hope to see the latest movie "Nomad" soon ) Oirad Kaganate & Halha Kaganate were not one Kingdom! -right? -right! Now Oirads & Halha Mongols live together! -right? -right! Oirads claim that Halha are traitors! -right? -right! Their last king Galdan said about Zanabazar(=Fist Bogda(=Religious leader of Buddist Mongols)) "I want that traitor`s(=cuz to save his life Zanabazar joined Manchu union.) head"! -right? -right! Tell me where did I lie? Actually personal ideas are important if it is not too radical. My mistake! ;D Yes...Manchu managed to destroy Ming that`s the point. (well...I can modify my post ) I want to say that Oirads invaded weakened Halha Kaganate! -that`s true! |
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Post by nemesis on Sept 27, 2006 1:09:46 GMT 3
Maybe I don`t know about Djungarian history much , I hope Kazak members have more to say! (btw I hope to see the latest movie "Nomad" soon ) Oirad Kaganate & Halha Kaganate were not one Kingdom! -right? -right! Now Oirads & Halha Mongols live together! -right? -right! Oirads claim that Halha are traitors! -right? -right! Their last king Galdan said about Zanabazar(=Fist Bogda(=Religious leader of Buddist Mongols)) "I want that traitor`s(=cuz to save his life Zanabazar joined Manchu union.) head"! -right? -right! Tell me where did I lie? Actually personal ideas are important if it is not too radical. My mistake! ;D Yes...Manchu managed to destroy Ming that`s the point. (well...I can modify my post ) I want to say that Oirads invaded weakened Halha Kaganate! -that`s true! I dont consider Khalhas as traitors!!! It just happened that way. The aristocrats of Khalha made bad decision by joining Zurchids instead of joining Oirad to fight Zurchids. You cannot argue with that. Please dont be stupid by saying "I want to say that Oirads invaded weakened Halha Kaganate! -that`s true! " because this is the nature of nomads and been like this for thousands of years. Now you dont say that "Gengis khan invaded tatars or khereids". The same sh!t!! Khalha was on the brink of destruction from all sides. Do you happen to know who was Chahundorj the Fool who attacked Zasagt Khan Shar and plundered Oirad territory for a month. Zasagt Khan and Oirad were allies at the time and Galdan had all the right to counterattack that son of a b!tch. 1st reason: Defend the Zasagt khan according to their sworen alliance, 2nd: To defend his own home territory. Any fool would never argue with the fact that Galdan's attack on Tushet Khanate was justified. Please dont prove your incompetence on this topic again and again. I am sure you have a very one sided unbalanced or exaggerated false information. Go and fetch yourself some historically accurate info and amuse me. Now you are just wasting my precious time, kid!!!!!!! |
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Post by nemesis on Sept 27, 2006 1:28:13 GMT 3
i can go on and on but I must act accordingly. Staff member means sh!t to me unless he proves his worth. I only respect people who have higher intelligence. I would help to learn junior fellas but I hate imposters and pretenders. I dont know about Bra Chono but he seems like one of those imposters to me. he just post and post without any proof or something to back him up. I cant get along with his type of people in general. That's what I mean. He doesn't have to understand my position but anywhere I see the truth being altered I will try to defend it. You know some evil people spread falsehood and benefit from their actions that's something I cant stand. It's not important that Bor Chono have wrong information in his head. The only thing bothers me is when he tries to spread it online and infects unsuspecting netsurfers like yourself. Only he had kept his mouth shut I wouldn't be doing all this in the first place. Dont' get me wrong. I am no flamer or anything freak. Ban me and I dont care!! |
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 27, 2006 4:16:28 GMT 3
U speak about 2 choices! -right? -one was to join Oirats -second was to join Manchu -right? The reason why Halha chosed Manchu is : 1.Oirats never accepted the noble blood of The Great Khaan. They always rebelled & tryed to control other Mongols. Tsahar & Buryat Mongolian leaders had noble blood but Oirat leaders don`t.(Noble blooded leaders always had to fight with them to show their right/power -like Manduhai The Wise Queen ). 2.Oirats started to destroy/burn temples of Zanabazar  , I mean they started to destroy what was created by Halha ppl. (I know why they did it, the reason of it. but I want to hear it from U! ) 3.Manchu promised to protect these creations & religion also right to rule for nobles. (Also they promised to other nomads "Neg ch hyatad shaahai Tsagaan heremnees davahgui"="No more chinese shoe will step outside The Great Wall" -that`s a good reason to join them! ) 4.Djungars lost their teritory (to Kazaks) & was trying to claim the land of Halha by force.(U can understand it as invasion). They managed to reach present Hentii aimag.  A Question what Oirats could give? (-nothing?  ) (btw Don`t use slang here cuz U showing yourself in bad side! ) |
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 27, 2006 4:18:42 GMT 3
Our Mighty Qaghan will not Ban U cuz he need more info on Oirats.! What he sees now is "There is a conflict among Halha & Oirat Mongols ". |
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Post by nemesis on Sept 27, 2006 7:43:25 GMT 3
oh, you are wrong!
I am not that simpleton to fall into your verbal trap. Your lies are not even funny anymore. Your knowledge on Oirads are actually based on hatred and false sense of pride. I understand that some lower beings need to have some reason to feel better about themselves, that's fine with me. I did mean YOU only, not your immediate folks. I dont generalize people like you do. I see good people in every nation and dont keep any hard feelings for anyone. On the otherhand you act like 12 y.o kid blaming everything on others. I couldn't careless anymore at what your saying anyway. So save your breathe and dont explode on me, allright!!! I am here just chilling and actually feel strange because I thought you were like an immovable mountain or something but found out that you were just another punk screaming and spitting all over the place. When you are O.D.ing just dont vomit on my shoes, find yourself a nice dumpster and sleep well in that!
Yeah, you are dissappointed me again. You are just repeating what the Manchus were using as propaganda to lure all Mongolians 400 years ago. I can even continue that. for example:
Galdan joined Russians or Galdan converted to Islam, Galdan murdered monks by his own hands, Galdan two days away to kill anything that moves, on and on. Manchu political agents backed by Zunhava sect monks cooperated together to hurt Galdan's public image. It's a well known fact, anyway. I think you want to believe in it because this version of history gives you some comfort. It's not our fault that Mongols fell into Manchus rule. I am not afraid to accept that some Oirad nobles acted inhumane and immoral for unknown reasons to this day. I dont pretend that I know everything. This issue has been under study for a very short time. In near future, I hope, we'll get more correct and reliable sources someday. I suggest you to read MNT to learn about Oirad development, especially right before Chinggis khaan's death. He is responsible for the creation of Oirads. If you get chance read about Hubilai and learn that Oirad warriors fought to keep Mongolian capital in Khara-Qorum. It's true that Oirad nobles tried several times to unify Mongolia and I dont see anything wrong with that. United Mongol could withstand any foreign aggression you know that. You claim that Khalha's integration into Manchus was a wise decision. I would never agree with that. Anyone decides to join the enemy and slaughter the other nomad people like themselves and resulting both being under enemy colonization is unarguably a traitor.
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Post by Bor Chono on Sept 27, 2006 15:43:18 GMT 3
I admit that I`m not well educated, I also think : -so U are! Yes Halha ppl have A PRIDE! Halha are BEST(moral), STRONGEST(guardian), CREATIVE(art, song, poem..etc) & PEACEFUL(religious & kind) (even if they are false ones, Halha ppl has prides) Oirats don`t cuz they lost huge teritory to Kazaks! (their patriotic pride is still seems useless cuz something happens only when Halha ppl moves. =I mean Bogda Javzandamba was successful ). U didn`t tell the reason why Galdan was destroying temples! So I shall tell it : Still Oirats say : "Ezeniig n ustgasan shashiniig shutegch teneg Halhuud!" means "Stupid Halha who worship to the religion which destroyed/killed their Lord(=The Great Khaan)". Buryats & Halha have good relationship. Do U know why? It is because of common religion. False or wrong Oirats didn`t gave Respect to it! Still does. (cuz Descendants of The Great Khaan chose this way. ) So I guess Buryats too believed to that Propaganda.(Oirats didn`t help them -that`s true! ) |
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, I hope Kazak members have more to say! 
, I mean they started to destroy what was created by Halha ppl. (I know why they did it, the reason of it. but I want to hear it from U! 
)