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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 17, 2004 9:29:08 GMT 3
I know that there are many scholars who debate whether the Huns were descended from the Xiongnu or not. Here are a few stuff I found in the recent times:
1) In Ancient Chinese, Xiongnu (Hsiung-nu) was Hongnu (Hung-nu), which is clearly the Chinese transcription of the Turko-Mongolic name Qun/Khun/Khunnu, meaning "People".
2) In a Soghdian letter written in the 4th century, the Xiongnu who captured and sacked Luoyang were referred as Xwn (Khûn?). Similarly, the Indians referred to the White Huns (Ephtalites) as Hûnâ.
3) I watched in the History Channel's "Barbarians" that there was a continuanity in the cauldron styles of Xiongnu and Huns in the Euroasian steppes.
What else? What are your ideas?
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Post by DarkAttila on Feb 2, 2005 20:19:00 GMT 3
Hi ihsan, I absolutely think so. I've been reading about the Huns for a number of years now and in light of the new found data it just confirms what's in my books. Btw, did you know that the Cumans of Hungary are also called Kún? I have this journal titled: International Journal of Central Asian Studies, Volume 2 1997. This has archaeological evidence of the Xiongnu burials resembling the ones in the Urals and even Hungary. It's very interesting and fascinating information. Btw, did you used to be named Janissary on some of the other Forums?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 4, 2005 1:00:35 GMT 3
Hi DarkAttila welcome to our forum! Yes, I knew Ah, it must be confirming the things I watched in the History Channel Hehe yes
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Post by malangthon on May 5, 2005 8:53:14 GMT 3
The work by Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes" has a lot to say about this. Some comments made by writers on Wikipedia indicate that they think the Hun--Hsiung-nu link issue is out of favour. What makes this interesting however is that the detractors seem to be saying that a racial or phenotypic identity needs to be established between the two groups and since there are none in evidence (i.e. just because they have many cultural similarities does not mean they are the same people), the link is no longer valid.
However, the Hsiung-nu and the Hun both absorbed other racial groups (e.g. the Alans and the Goths in the 4th century) so they are, (and I think many sources bear this out) more a confederation of racial groups. Ergo the argument against this Hsiung-nu--Hun link is moot.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 6, 2005 19:47:48 GMT 3
Hi Malangthon, welcome to SHF Hmm "Empire of the Steppes" is quiet old and a bit outdated, there are other important works which concentrate on this issue (such as Gumilëv's "Khunnu" [Huns] where he supports the Xiongnu-Hun connection theory). I also tend to agree with this Xiongnu-Hun thing. I mean, the Huns didn't appear out of nowhere
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Post by malangthon on May 7, 2005 9:41:27 GMT 3
Response to ihsan who wrote "Hmm "Empire of the Steppes" is quiet old and a bit outdated, there are other important works which concentrate on this issue (such as Gumilëv's "Khunnu" [Huns] where he supports the Xiongnu-Hun connection theory)."
I have been looking for any information that can convincingly argue that Grousset is old and outdated. The 'outdated' aspect evidently has not seen much illumination since the book is still being used in what university courses I have tracked down. Email I have sent the various faculties leads me to believe it is still widely regard as opposed to outdate. Got any sources?
One response with some leads was from a professor of Soc. and Anthro. at U. Toledo, Nathan Light: "The main problem with the Hsiungnu (Xiongnu)--Hun connection is the length of time between the two groups. There is no real reason why they wouldn't be the "same" people much later, but historians are cautious about assuming the link in the absence of evidence for political continuity. I am not very expert in all the issues related to this, but vol. 2 and 3 of the UNESCO series of books on Central Asia should have more details. (History of civilizations of Central Asia / editors, A.H. Dani, V.M. Masson)."
Anyone have access to this UNESCO series?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 9, 2005 14:53:13 GMT 3
Hmm interesting... But the book doesn't deal with the ancient Central Asian peoples and cultures that were recorded in Chinese sources, those before the 5th-6th centuries BC.
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Post by malangthon on May 9, 2005 22:15:39 GMT 3
Hmm interesting... But the book doesn't deal with the ancient Central Asian peoples and cultures that were recorded in Chinese sources, those before the 5th-6th centuries BC. TEXTMaybe and if so, a fair point but A. This in itself does not make Grousset outdated and B. If all the books were to include all these sources . . . Empire of the Steppes is a door stop of a book. Imagine if it included the sources you refer to. Meantime, the Chinese sources--I take it that after Mao's cultural revolution we have to do what any serious student of Chinese lit and history would have to do--find these in the Monasteries in Japan? If not, let me know what titles to buy from Amazon.com.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 11, 2005 20:09:42 GMT 3
Well you can find some info in the 24 Histories and other Ancient Chinese sources for the pre-Xiongnu [Eastern] Central Asian cultures.
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Post by malangthon on May 11, 2005 22:48:13 GMT 3
Hmm interesting... But the book doesn't deal with the ancient Central Asian peoples and cultures that were recorded in Chinese sources, those before the 5th-6th centuries BC. This reference may have been posted here www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decrespigny/han_xiongnu.htmlThe Division and Destruction of the Xiongnu Confederacy in the first and second centuries AD Internet edition 2004 Rafe de Crespigny Faculty of Asian Studies, Australian National University In which he states—in reference to the Hsiung-nu/Xiongnu: “The overwhelming amount of information on the people and their rulers comes from Chinese sources, which are for the most part predictably hostile. Few words are recorded of the Xiongnu language, and small confidence can be placed on transcription from their alien speech through ancient Chinese to the present day. The Chinese term "Xiongnu" presumably reflects the sound of the foreign tongue; though identification has often been suggested the name need not be related to that of the later Huns who afflicted Europe centuries later.” [stop] At this point, I think that the question is wide open rather than a certainty. However, given the cultural overlays--and there was a lot of similiarity mong these steppe hordes, the way in which they absorbed other groups, and the span of time--the Gothic Tribes were pushed over the Danube after the break up of the two Hsiung-nu Empires-- The destruction of the Northern Xiongnu [51-92 AD] and The end of the Southern Xiongnu state [150-216 AD] (same article) The option remains, these guys could have been Atilla's ancestors or he could be part of another group that coalesced with the remnants of either of the two Hsiung-nu empires. It is not far fetched—just not overwhelmingly obvious. Rene Grousset still gets high marks in my book. He did state his case as a fact--but who reads history as a collection of proven facts anyway? So, his book, while not apparently contradicting the Chinese sources, was not about the Chinese sources. Sounds like some work for a devoted historian. I will try to get in touch with the author of this article above and see what he thinks of Grousset--just out of curiosity. Who knows, he might not have a high opinion of him. My two cents.
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Post by tadamson on Jul 25, 2005 17:12:56 GMT 3
For a more modern (and not quite so Chinese based) view see "Ancient China and Its Enemies: The Rise of Nomadic Power in East Asian History" by Nicola Di Cosmo. Also you should read "The World of the Huns: Studies in Their History and Culture" by Otto J.Maenchen Helfen (older but an outstanding book).
There is no direct evidence for any Hun Xiong-nu link, but there may be a chain of linkages and the answer to "were they - weren't they" gets a different slant from every scholar..
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 26, 2005 0:21:10 GMT 3
Hi tadamson, welcome to the forum I have Maenchen-Helfen's book
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Post by tadamson on Jul 26, 2005 15:48:07 GMT 3
It took me a while to find you again.... Seems quiet, still a few people lost?
I reccomend prof Di Cosmo's book, it's based on his doctoral thesis and very interesting.
rgds. Tom..
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 28, 2005 13:56:35 GMT 3
The forum's not very active, unfortunately
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Post by Imperator Invictus on Jul 29, 2005 18:47:19 GMT 3
Just out of curiosity, has there been recent data on burial studies relating the Xiong Nu and the Huns?
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