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Post by naaya on Jul 23, 2007 1:34:40 GMT 3
okey the word shan yu or Chanyu u say it is in old mongolian language means the head wolf the strongest and wisest wolf... couse the wolf was holly crature among mongols it also meant supreme ruler
khan or khaan is in old mongolian language khagan and means lord and lord is son or more generally male descendant it is so simple
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 26, 2007 18:21:19 GMT 3
There is no way to proove this.
I do not think there are enough evidences to proove whether the title Qan/Khan was Turkic or Mongolic. Qaghan looks like Mongolian, but not Qan, which looks more Turkic.
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Post by fangao66 on Feb 23, 2009 3:29:38 GMT 3
Chinese "record of history " said: Under the Chanyu were the two king called the "Han(ÏÍ)". One is the left han who rule the east of the Xiongnu empire. Another is th right han who rule the west of the Xiongnu empire. Chinese ÏÍ ancient pronounce is just 'han". It is just translate from Khan. I know there was a very powerful right Han who had ever defeat Yuezi throughtly and conque the Tarm.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 23, 2009 15:17:26 GMT 3
Do you know exactly where in Shiji 史記 is this information found, so that I can check it?
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Post by aykurt on Aug 10, 2009 14:41:44 GMT 3
In Persian the title Shahanshah means king of kings. I think the assumption that Khaghan means king of kings comes from relating it to the persian title but the titles are different.
Isn't the difference between Khan and Khaghan one of pronunciation? The gutteral gh becoming silent like in modern Turkish. Khaghan becoming monosyllable instead of having two syllables. For example, Qan and its variants can be pronounced with the a becoming long or doubled. Kha'n or Kha'an. Also in some cases the kh softens to h. Perhaps these changes in pronunciation was happening back then too?
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Post by aykurt on Aug 10, 2009 14:44:30 GMT 3
I do not think there are enough evidences to proove whether the title Qan/Khan was Turkic or Mongolic. Qaghan looks like Mongolian, but not Qan, which looks more Turkic. I dont know, what makes you think this? From observation i find the gh quite common in Turkic, especially among South Siberian Turks. Even in Anatolian Turkish its quite common with the only difference that in official Turkish it is now silent and only lengthens the vowel in the word.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 10, 2009 23:41:35 GMT 3
Actually now I think in a different way, it is obvious that Qan (Khan) was a shortened version of Qaghan, but still the origin language of it remains unknown. The same goes for Qatun (Khatun).
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Post by nomadi on Aug 28, 2009 22:37:51 GMT 3
I know Khan is Turkic title, Old Mongols ( After Chinggis ) use " Tayiji" title for khans example "Khong Tayiji"
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Post by Subu'atai on Aug 29, 2009 14:54:16 GMT 3
Actually I've only seen the Tayiji title used by non-Chingghisid Oirat Khaans, I do not know why however, or whether its a title imposed or adopted during the Oirat-Halh conflict. Khaan has always been in use throughout Mongol history by both Non-Chingghisid and Chingghisid Mongols.
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Post by nomadi on Aug 31, 2009 15:04:48 GMT 3
A Kazakh brother say Khan only Turkic rank,Bodonchar ( Founder or Borjigin ) is Turk. Meaning l" leader of tribe" " BOD(Tribe) CHUR (lider). BORI(WOLF ) JIGIN ( PRINCE ) in Kyrygyz , Kazak language.
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Post by Subu'atai on Aug 31, 2009 15:25:33 GMT 3
ROFL!!!! Kazakhs?!
Your Kazakh brother sounds like those who are so pathetic with their own imposed Russian racial complexes and try to falsely propagate "We should be proud to be a great people because Chingghis Khaan is Turk not Mongol!!!" Personally if I was you I would open your eyes.
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Post by sarmat on Aug 31, 2009 18:23:36 GMT 3
Yeah, many Kazakhs have already convinced themselves that Chingiz Khan and his "Mongols" were 100% Turks and modern Khalkhas came from the forests in the 15th century. ;D
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 1, 2009 0:23:39 GMT 3
Those Kazakhs (and Turks in Turkey) who claim that Činggis Qan and his Mongols were all Turkic are so funny ;D ;D ;D
Seriously, as Bahaeddin Ögel pointed out in his famous work Türk Mitolojisi (Turkic Mythology), the name of Temüjin's tribe, Kiyan, was probably of Turkic origin, and there is a probability that Temüjin's clan Borjigin might be originially Böri Tigin (Wolf Prince), a Turkic title. However, this doesn't automaticially mean that they were Turkic. We all know that they were Mongols and I don't think we should even doubt this. There were Turkic tribes and peoples with Mongolic names, there were Mongol tribes with Turkic names, that's so common and normal, nothing to sense and claim underneath. Temüjin was a Mongol, never a Turk.
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Post by nomadi on Sept 1, 2009 16:40:27 GMT 3
But they have very serius ideas,i have a kazakh brothers words but my englsh is bad i cant translating
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 1, 2009 21:35:19 GMT 3
Seriously, as Bahaeddin Ögel pointed out in his famous work Türk Mitolojisi (Turkic Mythology), the name of Temüjin's tribe, Kiyan, was probably of Turkic origin, and there is a probability that Temüjin's clan Borjigin might be originially Böri Tigin (Wolf Prince), a Turkic title. that would be a funny twist in history, you know, Temür being a Turkified Mongol and Temüjin a Mongolified Turk... ;D
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