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Post by hulagu on Oct 7, 2006 10:55:30 GMT 3
Khan means president lol
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Post by Atabeg on Oct 7, 2006 11:41:19 GMT 3
Ahahahah .....No
since when is the Title Khan a democratic one. It means king or ruler leader(as qagan is sipreme ruler) and nothing else
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 7, 2006 14:37:30 GMT 3
Actually, Qan (Khan) and Qaghan (Khaghan) were at the same level. There are instances when both were used for each other.
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Post by Temüjin on Oct 7, 2006 21:50:59 GMT 3
maybe, but considder this. in germany for example, the ruler of the HRE was called Emperor of Rome and King of Germans, or Wilhelm II, who was Emperor of Germany and King of Prussia at the same time. so he was both Emperor (Qaghan) and king (Qan) and he could be called both but the titles were not equal. Or another example, in the Danube Monarchy (Austria-Hungary) the ruler was called K.u.K. (Kaiser und König=Emperor & King) because he was both Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary. so you have examples were a ruler was called both Qaghan and Qan but the titles were not equal.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 8, 2006 1:24:40 GMT 3
My point is that the difference between Qaghan and Qan was much lesser than the difference between Emperor and King. In one inscription, the title was called Qan and in another one, the same ruler was called Qaghan. If you have seen The Secret History of the Mongols, you would realise that Temüjin's post-1206 title was written sometimes Chinggis Khan and sometimes Chinggis Khaghan.
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Post by Atabeg on Oct 8, 2006 17:17:18 GMT 3
I think due to his large therotory chingis khan became qagan. he was the supreme ruler of turks and mongols and later he added non nomadics to it
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Post by Temüjin on Oct 8, 2006 21:27:12 GMT 3
i always thought Qaghan means king of kings... yes, eventually Chinggis was called Qaghan but i think only after 1206, before that he was of course "just" Qan...
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 8, 2006 22:17:31 GMT 3
i always thought Qaghan means king of kings... yes, eventually Chinggis was called Qaghan but i think only after 1206, before that he was of course "just" Qan... I used to think like this but after reading first-hand written records from the steppe peoples, I realised that the titles Qan/Khan and Qaghan were almost the same (maybe exactly the same). I also asked this to Prof. Dr. Ýsenbike Togan (one of the rare Mongol history experts in Turkey) and she said the title Khaghan was used only after Chinggis Khan. Now I think, I guess the meaning of Khaghan changed during the Mongol period because after the death of Chinggis Khan, his successors were titled Khaghan. According to Ý. Togan, Temüjin's post-1206 title was Chinggis Khan, eventhough the Secret History gives both Chinggis Khan and Chinggis Khaghan. However, as I have seen in Turkic history, the Turks usually did not differ both titles, as we see from the written records left from the Blue Turks, Uyghurs, Qarakhanids and Ottomans.
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Post by Atabeg on Oct 9, 2006 18:57:51 GMT 3
that the title qagan was used after cingis is normal becuz he was teh first to unite all steppe tribes
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Post by tadamson on Oct 13, 2006 17:38:16 GMT 3
Most of the confusion is because most of the sources we have were written by outsiders, some of whom were unclear on the usage. Also usage may have varied both chronologically and geographically.
There are some groups that seem to have used both, the distinction seems to be more that khan led a single clan or tribe and khagan led a group of clans/tribes. Usage was not consistant though.
nb the titles both predate Temuljin by hundreds of years.
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Post by Bor Chono on Oct 13, 2006 17:56:13 GMT 3
Did Jabba from STARWARS had title Khan?
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Post by tengrikut on Oct 13, 2006 18:50:12 GMT 3
that the title qagan was used after cingis is normal becuz he was teh first to unite all steppe tribes no it was being used before Cingis Khan. for example look to "bengütash"s.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 13, 2006 20:40:12 GMT 3
Did Jabba from STARWARS had title Khan? LOL I do not know, where did you hear that? ;D
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Post by Bor Chono on Oct 17, 2006 15:01:39 GMT 3
Maybe I`m mistaking! In the episode when Jabba is killed by the Princess, I thought I heard that Jabba`s servents were calling him as "Jabba khan". U know Jabba, he controls space pirates from different races -from humans to aliens. He is not a Sultan, Tsar or King -he is more like Kagaan=leader chosen by freedom loving warriors.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 17, 2006 21:12:54 GMT 3
Hmm I don't know, I haven't watched that episode yet
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