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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2006 23:51:37 GMT 3
Is it possible for anyone to give us a list of Xianbei tribes? Thank you
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Post by asiaticus on Sept 9, 2006 0:07:09 GMT 3
I think this is a more difficult task than enumerating Xiongnu tribes (for wich we have Jinshu 97 wit a list of 19 Xiongnu tribes) or Turk tribes. It seems that the Xianbei confederation was more volatile than the Xiongnu one; surely enough it had a very short life after the death of the leader Tanshihuai. I think then that we would discriminate between the Tanshihuai period and the Tuoba-wei period. For the latter we know some of these tribes (founders of several Dynasties) as (all names are chinese transcriptions) Murong, Qifu, Shiwen, Duan and many other of lesser importance. For the Tanshihuai period we only have Hou Hanshu 90 (Wuhuan Xianbei zhuan) who says (Zhonghua shuju ed., p.2989, translation mine): " Then [Tanshihuai] divided his country in three sections (sanbu ) : From the east of Youbeiping to Liaodong, reaching Fuyu and Huimo more than 20 y¨¬ [for identify this character, see Karlgren, Grammata Serica Recensa, n. 683a - Kangxi Dictionary: Radical 163] formed the eastern section; from the west of Youbeipingto Shanggu more than 10 y¨¬ formed the central section; from the west of Shanggu to Dunhuang and Wusun [on the Ili lake] , more than 20 y¨¬ formed the western section; each of them established great men to lead them, all depending from Tanshihuai" . I think that y¨¬ that usually means "city" or "town", in this nomadic context may mean " tribe" so we would have that the Xianbei federation under Tanshihua had more than fifty tribes. Their names is not recorded but one of the minor headmen under Tanshihuai is called in Welue Murong Se, i.e. he was of the Murong tribe.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 9, 2006 10:43:07 GMT 3
Thank you Asiaticus Were the Shiwei, Khitans, Tatars and Tatabï also regarded as peoples of Xianbei origin?
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Post by asiaticus on Sept 10, 2006 1:30:51 GMT 3
I know the answer for the Shiwei: it seems that their name was a late garbled form of the Xianbei name. For the Tatars there is the chance that their name came from the Rouran headman name, chin. Dada< ancient * Tatar. I am not sure for Khitans but maybe they are of the same stock, originating in the same country. The same uncertainty for the Tatabi.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 10, 2006 2:45:55 GMT 3
Thank you asiaticus
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Post by asiaticus on Sept 10, 2006 8:34:59 GMT 3
Some Xianbei tribes enclosed in the Rouran confederation (for more details see the Rouran section) : (all names are in modern chinese Pinyin. To read ancient chinese characters (BIG 5) maybe you need to have the Arial Unicode font or Lucida sans Unicode).
B) Xianbei tribes: 8¡£ ÍØ °Ï Tuoba 9¡£ Çð ¶Ø Qiudun 10¡£ Ÿo ±R Õæ Wuluzhen 11¡£ Ðg Âå ¸É Shuluogan 12¡£ ξ ßt Weichi 13¡£ ¹È œ† Yuhun 14¡£ Æ¥ Šä Pilou 15¡£ Ò² µØ ÑÓ Yediyan 16¡£ Ī ÄÇ Šä Monalou 17¡£ ß³ ¶¹ œ† Chidouhun 18¡£ Žì Èì ¹Ù Kurouguan 19¡£ œØ Åè Wenpen 20¡£ Ðg Àè Shuli 21¡£ žõ Âå ºî Wuluohou Certain that this list will make someone glad, loriano belluomini
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 10, 2006 19:07:20 GMT 3
Thank you Mr. Belluomini
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Post by asiaticus on Sept 10, 2006 22:51:29 GMT 3
You are very kind, Mr Tegin
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Post by Saran on Jan 18, 2007 14:15:20 GMT 3
Sumbe State /Syanbi/ One of the successors of the Hunnu Empire was the powerful state of Sumbe. Since 150, the time when Tanshihuai, the son of Tuluho had unified the small provinces of Syanbi and made it into a bigger state, announcing himself as the ruler, the state had dominated the central Asia for 100 years.
During the time of Tanshihuai the state become visibly powerful and even conquered back all the territory, which was once the land of Hunnu when Modun Shanyio was the ruler. At that time, the economy and trade had even expanded and reached the same level as Hunnu Empire.
The ancestors of nomadic Syanbi were Dunhu / Hu people of the east/ and had blood relations with the Hunnus.
The state had inherited the statehood of Hunnu and even expanded it, which was a significant one step forward in development. Especially their strategy of military was so powerful. The descendants of Syanbi are relatively unknown. The last ruler Kebijan /ruled between 210 and 235/ was assassinated. The Kidan State is regarded as the successors of the Syanbi.
By the time Syanbi had fell down, The Myun State / 318-360/ and Toba Wei / Yuan State, 307-581/ had succeeded it. Togans, the part of Myun moved to the Huh Nuur, Tsaidam and established the Togan State in the 4th century. Their descendents are the Sharai of the 10th to 9th century and in the 13th century they got mixed with the Mongol nomads.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 18, 2007 15:19:25 GMT 3
had blood relations with the Hunnus. I have never seen any Chinese sources confirming this. The descendants of Syanbi are relatively unknown. The last ruler Kebijan /ruled between 210 and 235/ was assassinated. The Kidan State is regarded as the successors of the Syanbi. All the Mongolic peoples are the descendents of the Xianbei (Hsien-pi).
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Post by mongolulus on Apr 5, 2009 13:34:35 GMT 3
this is my attempt to reconstruct from memory what i read once in Kh. Perlee's "The khitans and their connections to the mongols" 1958.
from the xianbei we have two branches, one the khitans (who included tribes like kumoxi who were defeated by the northern wei in 388), and the other the shiwei (who they say are the ancestors of the kiyad and darligin mongols).
so, i guess professor perlee was convinced by chinese records that atleast the khitans and shiwei had direct descendance from the xianbei. there is a genealogical diagramm in his book, which i read in the state library in ulaanbaatar.
but this is about all know. i really want to know more about this period.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 5, 2009 13:58:05 GMT 3
Indeed, Chinese sources do mention that the Kitans and Shiwei were closely related, and they were descendents of the Xianbei:
According to Shiji 史記 (43: 1806, 110: 2885), Hanshu 漢書 (94: 3758), Hou Hanshu 後漢書 (90: 2985), Sanguozhi 三國志 (30: 832, 836) and Jinshu 晉書 (108: 2803-2804), the Xianbei 鮮卑 (Serbet) were descendents of Donghu 東胡. According to Beishi 北史 (94: 3129), Suishu 隋書 (64: 1882, 1886) and Jiu Tangshu 舊唐書 (199: 5356), the Shiwei 室韋 were closely related with the Qidan 契丹 (Kitan) or they were a group of them, and their language was similar to theirs. Xin Tangshu 新唐書 (219: 6167, 6176) clearly states that both the Shiwei and Kitan were descendents of the Donghu and the Serbet.
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Post by mongolulus on Apr 5, 2009 18:54:30 GMT 3
wow, thank you for the sources!
if only i could read them in chinese. my chinese is not good.
it would be great to read the actual lines. is it possible to provide translations of those few precious sentences?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 6, 2009 14:31:32 GMT 3
I actually did the translations ;D They give very short info and I have already listed them inside the post
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Post by mongolulus on Apr 6, 2009 16:09:32 GMT 3
well, they're enough for me anyway. thanks. praise to the mighty SHUs for preserving our history.
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