Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 20, 2004 19:09:39 GMT 3
(Originially posted by me at October 17, 2004)
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Were the Avars in Eastern-Central Europe related with the Ruanruan in Mongolia? I think that's quiet impossible. If yes, we would appreciate someone to show us some evidences
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(Originially posted by Rava at October 19, 2004)
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Avars were reported close to Balklash Lake and aprox. 461-463 forced Sabirs as far as over Volga River. Accordingly to Priscus Rethor because "a fog rose from the sea scaring people" and this was followed by countless "vultures descending upon the people". This remains a description of some vulcano activity and in fact there was "stinky" Turfan vulcano close to this area.. For instance Chinese chronicles gave us a description of Turfan activity during Sang dynasties (960-1279) stressing frog of smog. Perhaps Turfan was active in the 5th century as well however I didn't get confirmation of that in the literature. Seems that the smog killed animals, and maybe people too and this is why the vultures had a lot of work... brrr. Therefore Awars couldn't be related to Mongolian Tribes.
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(Originially posted by me at October 19, 2004)
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But the same Byzantine source state out that there were "Real Avars" and "Fake Avars", meaning that the two peoples were unrelated except in names maybe.
And I keep seeing the Uars and Khionites (Red Huns?) as the ancestors of European Avars, who exactly were they? Were they related with the Ruanruan in any way?
Chinese sources say that most of the Ruanruan were massacred by the Western Tuoba Wei and the new rising power of the Tujue (Gök Türk) Qaghanate.
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(Originially posted by Rava at October 22, 2004)
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But the same Byzantine source state out that there were "Real Avars" and "Fake Avars", meaning that the two peoples were unrelated except in names maybe.
This dillema appeared in some diplomatic affair between the Byzantine Emperor and Turkic Kagan. Turks were driving mad that Avars used the title Kagan. Turks claimed that in fact they were Varchonites not "proper" Avars. The other source, Paul Diakon, wrote that Avars previously were known as Huns but now using the name of their king. I assume that they might used the name of a king's clan or tribe (not a particular name of a person) entitled - being of turkic stock - to use this title. As far as I remember it was wrote in one of Bugut inscriptions that at one time only one turkic tribe is entitled to choose the Kagan for all the tribes?
And I keep seeing the Uars and Khionites (Red Huns?) as the ancestors of European Avars, who exactly were they? Confused" Were they related with the Ruanruan in any way?
It is my historical obsesion... who they were. Theres not to much information and mostly speculations. One relation (Marcellinus) from the siedge of Amida pointed out that Grumbates the King of Chionites lost "his beautiful son". This excludes their Mongol or Hunnic origin from the point of view of Romans sense of esthetic.
Sources put those two tribes always together but rather as the cooperative neighbours.
It's known that Chionites attacked Sogdiana from the North, perhaps their homeland was at the banks of the Caspian See (Ptolemy's Chunni)
However it seems that Red Huns were not identical or the synonymus of the Chionites as a whole ethnos. Perhaps they ruled Ferghana before were forced by the Hephtalites.
Their Capital City was Bolo (undiscovered). Some think that their name is connected with the red color of the warriors' dress and armour - but most of the armies at then were red dressed. Another assume (on the basis of some mural paintings) their darker skin. Well it's a subject for a comprehensive discussion and it's up to you
if you intend to carry it on here, in this topic - or to start a new one devoted to H'yaona and their descendants.
Var/Uar tribe was reported at the banks of Til river called by Turks "black water" or "black river". This remains me the early name of Volga River i.e. Itil but was Volga named black by the Turks?
Chinese sources say that most of the Ruanruan were massacred by the Western Tuoba Wei and the new rising power of the Tujue (Gök Türk) Qaghanate.
From the diplomatic correpondence it is evident that Varchionites left Central Asia when Turks in alliance with Persians attacked this territory. There were 20000 of them, perhaps only the warriors number was estimated.
Does Ruanruan means something in the chinesse or just recalls a sound of their genuine ethnonym? I read that it means 'insects'.
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(Originially posted by me at October 22, 2004)
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Uhm, at which row exactly? (I got it's text)
Ok, I'll open a new thread.
I don't know. never heard that :oops:
Well, their name has a few versions in Chinese:
蠕蠕 Ruánruán (Rúrú): Squirming insects
柔然 Roúrán: Soft correct (which doesn't have a meaning so Rouran must be the transcription of a foreign name)
茹茹 Rúrú: Couldn't find a meaning
The most widely used version was Ruanruan I guess.
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(Originially posted by Rava at October 22, 2004)
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That was in Orchon inscription.
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Were the Avars in Eastern-Central Europe related with the Ruanruan in Mongolia? I think that's quiet impossible. If yes, we would appreciate someone to show us some evidences
----------------
(Originially posted by Rava at October 19, 2004)
----
Avars were reported close to Balklash Lake and aprox. 461-463 forced Sabirs as far as over Volga River. Accordingly to Priscus Rethor because "a fog rose from the sea scaring people" and this was followed by countless "vultures descending upon the people". This remains a description of some vulcano activity and in fact there was "stinky" Turfan vulcano close to this area.. For instance Chinese chronicles gave us a description of Turfan activity during Sang dynasties (960-1279) stressing frog of smog. Perhaps Turfan was active in the 5th century as well however I didn't get confirmation of that in the literature. Seems that the smog killed animals, and maybe people too and this is why the vultures had a lot of work... brrr. Therefore Awars couldn't be related to Mongolian Tribes.
----------------
(Originially posted by me at October 19, 2004)
----
But the same Byzantine source state out that there were "Real Avars" and "Fake Avars", meaning that the two peoples were unrelated except in names maybe.
And I keep seeing the Uars and Khionites (Red Huns?) as the ancestors of European Avars, who exactly were they? Were they related with the Ruanruan in any way?
Chinese sources say that most of the Ruanruan were massacred by the Western Tuoba Wei and the new rising power of the Tujue (Gök Türk) Qaghanate.
----------------
(Originially posted by Rava at October 22, 2004)
----
But the same Byzantine source state out that there were "Real Avars" and "Fake Avars", meaning that the two peoples were unrelated except in names maybe.
This dillema appeared in some diplomatic affair between the Byzantine Emperor and Turkic Kagan. Turks were driving mad that Avars used the title Kagan. Turks claimed that in fact they were Varchonites not "proper" Avars. The other source, Paul Diakon, wrote that Avars previously were known as Huns but now using the name of their king. I assume that they might used the name of a king's clan or tribe (not a particular name of a person) entitled - being of turkic stock - to use this title. As far as I remember it was wrote in one of Bugut inscriptions that at one time only one turkic tribe is entitled to choose the Kagan for all the tribes?
And I keep seeing the Uars and Khionites (Red Huns?) as the ancestors of European Avars, who exactly were they? Confused" Were they related with the Ruanruan in any way?
It is my historical obsesion... who they were. Theres not to much information and mostly speculations. One relation (Marcellinus) from the siedge of Amida pointed out that Grumbates the King of Chionites lost "his beautiful son". This excludes their Mongol or Hunnic origin from the point of view of Romans sense of esthetic.
Sources put those two tribes always together but rather as the cooperative neighbours.
It's known that Chionites attacked Sogdiana from the North, perhaps their homeland was at the banks of the Caspian See (Ptolemy's Chunni)
However it seems that Red Huns were not identical or the synonymus of the Chionites as a whole ethnos. Perhaps they ruled Ferghana before were forced by the Hephtalites.
Their Capital City was Bolo (undiscovered). Some think that their name is connected with the red color of the warriors' dress and armour - but most of the armies at then were red dressed. Another assume (on the basis of some mural paintings) their darker skin. Well it's a subject for a comprehensive discussion and it's up to you
if you intend to carry it on here, in this topic - or to start a new one devoted to H'yaona and their descendants.
Var/Uar tribe was reported at the banks of Til river called by Turks "black water" or "black river". This remains me the early name of Volga River i.e. Itil but was Volga named black by the Turks?
Chinese sources say that most of the Ruanruan were massacred by the Western Tuoba Wei and the new rising power of the Tujue (Gök Türk) Qaghanate.
From the diplomatic correpondence it is evident that Varchionites left Central Asia when Turks in alliance with Persians attacked this territory. There were 20000 of them, perhaps only the warriors number was estimated.
Does Ruanruan means something in the chinesse or just recalls a sound of their genuine ethnonym? I read that it means 'insects'.
----------------
(Originially posted by me at October 22, 2004)
----
As far as I remember it was wrote in one of Bugut inscriptions that at one time only one turkic tribe is entitled to choose the Kagan for all the tribes?
Uhm, at which row exactly? (I got it's text)
Well it's a subject for a comprehensive discussion and it's up to you
if you intend to carry it on here, in this topic - or to start a new one devoted to H'yaona and their descendants.
if you intend to carry it on here, in this topic - or to start a new one devoted to H'yaona and their descendants.
Ok, I'll open a new thread.
This remains me the early name of Volga River i.e. Itil but was Volga named black by the Turks?
I don't know. never heard that :oops:
Does Ruanruan means something in the chinesse or just recalls a sound of their genuine ethnonym? I read that it means 'insects'.
Well, their name has a few versions in Chinese:
蠕蠕 Ruánruán (Rúrú): Squirming insects
柔然 Roúrán: Soft correct (which doesn't have a meaning so Rouran must be the transcription of a foreign name)
茹茹 Rúrú: Couldn't find a meaning
The most widely used version was Ruanruan I guess.
----------------
(Originially posted by Rava at October 22, 2004)
----
That was in Orchon inscription.