|
|
Post by merlkir on Jan 1, 2011 13:24:40 GMT 3
If I'm not mistaken, that's one of the super-kypchak nationalist websites Ancalimon likes to link to so much.
(it may not be all bad.)
|
|
|
|
Post by ancalimon on Jan 1, 2011 19:02:56 GMT 3
El here looks like the Il/El meaning "Realm", "Land", etc  I think IL has some kind of "close" meaning while EL has some kind of "further" meaning. Or maybe IL (inner) and EL (outer) ? IL in general should mean something close to "civilization" For example "to give someone İL" should have a meaning of giving someone the ability to belong together, form a realm, bound by law, etc. |
|
|
|
Post by hjernespiser on Jan 1, 2011 20:22:40 GMT 3
I've noticed that such near/far meaning in Turkic is indicated by opposition between a vowel and a consonant plus the vowel.
I.e.:
Tyvan: mynda - here (note initial m/b), ynda - there, bo - this, ol - that
Turkish: burada - here, orada - there, bu- this, o - that
Hungarian, on the other hand, uses front/back vowels to indicate that same idea:
ez - this
az - that
itt - here
ott - there
|
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 2, 2011 17:44:56 GMT 3
I think IL has some kind of "close" meaning while EL has some kind of "further" meaning. Or maybe IL (inner) and EL (outer) ? No, Il and El (pronounced with a Closed E, not with an Open E or Ä, so it is not pronounced the same way with Modern Turkish El meaning "Hand" which was Älig in Old Turkic) are the same words, but Turkologists have a disagreement on the problem that whether Old Turkic i only represented the i sound or it also included e (closed e). "Outer" in Old Turkic is Taš and Tašra. |
|
|
|
Post by ancalimon on Jan 2, 2011 23:31:13 GMT 3
 What does L mean on the 8th line 5th letter? Kürt İL Khan? or Kürt EL Khan? I see it as being connected to a single entity. |
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 3, 2011 22:23:36 GMT 3
It was first read as Kürt Il Qan but later, Turkologists such as Talat Tekin prooved that it is Körtlä Qan meaning "Brave Ruler". The word Körtlä can also be seen in Turfanese Uyghur documents in that context. So no, the Kurds are not mentioned in the Elegesh Inscription.
|
|
|
|
Post by ancalimon on Jan 3, 2011 23:26:38 GMT 3
It was first read as Kürt Il Qan but later, Turkologists such as Talat Tekin prooved that it is Körtlä Qan meaning "Brave Ruler". The word Körtlä can also be seen in Turfanese Uyghur documents in that context. So no, the Kurds are not mentioned in the Elegesh Inscription. I always thought he was a Kurt who were given İL by the Turks. That geography later turned into İlhanlı state. tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0lhanl%C4%B1larThanks for clearing this for me. Although somehow I feel uneasy about this. |
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 4, 2011 18:52:47 GMT 3
You are welcome. The Elegesh Inscription is in the Yenisei Basin in southern Siberia and it belongs to the Yenisei Qyrghyz, not to the Ilkhanate or any other Middle Eastern Turko-Mongols.
|
|
|
|
Post by subuatai on Feb 4, 2011 23:38:45 GMT 3
Can anyone tell me what "Deshti" means?
And does anyone have any idea what the estimated population of the western steppes were in the 11th century?
|
|
|
|
Post by Kilij Arslan on Feb 5, 2011 0:32:02 GMT 3
Desht-i or more proper desht-e is just 'land of' in persian languages. Arabs use -i, Persians use -e. Thus Desht-e-Kipchak (however you would write it) is the land of Kipchaks.
Edit:
But then again I'm not sure how it worked in other nations... I think Tajiks use -i as well, I have no idea how turkish peoples actually used it when borrowing this construction...
|
|
|
|
Post by subuatai on Feb 5, 2011 1:14:10 GMT 3
ok.. thats what I assumed thanks.. (I don't speak or read much other than English and some French.  ) So in regards to the Cuman Kypchak confederation how did they refer to their "empire" I cant see them calling there khanate/or grouping of khanates "lands of Kypchak"? How would one say "Cuman Kypchak confederation" in turkic? Thanks again.. Also do we know anything about their symbolizms? ie: banners and flags. |
|
|
|
Post by Ardavarz on Feb 5, 2011 1:32:50 GMT 3
"Dasht" means "steppe, field" or "desert" in Persian (Farsi). The short "a" here is pronounced like "e" or "ä" in Turkic languages, I think maybe also in some Iranian dialects, and thus it becomes "desht".
Then the sound of attributive connection (izāfet) was pronounced like "-i" in the classic Persian, but in modern language spoken in Iran today it sounds like "-e" (it also depends on the dialect).
So in Farsi it's Dasht-e Qebchāq - "Steppe of the Kipchaks". Cf. also Dasht-e Kavīr - "Salt Desert" and Dasht-e Lut - "Bare Desert" in Iran.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ardavarz on Feb 5, 2011 1:48:00 GMT 3
BTW I am not sure if this name (Dasht-i Kipchak) was used by the Kipchaks themselves. I have read somewhere that it has been an alternative designation of the Golden Horde, but maybe I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 5, 2011 4:33:33 GMT 3
Actually -i does not exist in Arabic, they use the al- artikel for that. The Persian expression Dašt-i Qipčāq would be Al-Ṣaḥrā´ al-Qifjāq or something like that in Arabic (though I never came across any such Arabic expressions before so I just made it up now).
Qïpčaq Il or Qïpčaq Ili but I do not remember seeing any such expressions in any historical texts.
In contemporary sources, the Golden Horde was called Qypchaq Khanate.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kilij Arslan on Feb 5, 2011 11:45:48 GMT 3
Then the sound of attributive connection (izāfet) was pronounced like "-i" in the classic Persian, but in modern language spoken in Iran today it sounds like "-e" (it also depends on the dialect). Ah, so that's why old Arab texts would have -i- in them when describing places... (Then again it's not that I ever read any arab text in original  ) Because Arabs actually use izafet (ezafet?) when relating about some geographical given names. I just dug out they might twist it sometimes even to dast-a or dast-u anyway. |
|
)
) Because Arabs actually use izafet (ezafet?) when relating about some geographical given names. I just dug out they might twist it sometimes even to dast-a or dast-u anyway.