Kypchak

[Atabeg]

I heqred we had one its currently with some distant relatives who are either in Kazakhistan or Azerbaycan need to ask grandfather for that.

[hatshepsut]

I have information on Kypchaks which will astound you. I'm runnng a related thread here:

www.davithingye.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62996

Make a post, and I'll tell you what i know.

[Asparuh]

Kypchak or Cumans.

Bulgarians should be gratefull of them ,because with their help we fought many times against the Vyzantine empire.
Bulgarian kings used many times their excelent cavalry in their wars.
Here is one image of a Cuman warrior.

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[Asparuh]

2.I love their hats thought,they look hunnish to me.

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[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Cuman-Qypchaqs played an important role in the history of the Balkans, but this is usually unknown today, unfortunately

By the way, that headgear is typical to the Qypchaqs only.

[nikebg]

Hey, guys! I haven't visited the forum for a long time (and am not an active user anyway), but I need your help with some info about the Kypchaks, or more specifically about the Cumans (the Western part of the Kypchaks). I'm trying to find some information about them around the year 1200 for one historical mod for the game Mount & Blade and I need names of different chieftains and khans they had in this year. But all I could find so far is this:
- In the 1202-1203 Hungarian-Bulgarian war, the Cuman forces were led by some chief called Guban (as given by a Hungarian chronicle) or Koban Urosobich (from the Russian chronicles), meaning "Koban, of the Urosoba clan", which was subjogated by the Dniepr dynasty of Burdjogli (the main dynastic clans in this area are given as: Olberli, Kay, Terteroba, Burdjogli, Itogli; Burdjogli and Itogli were near the Dniepr river and Tsar Kaloyan's wife was probably from one of those two clans).
- In 1205 Niketas Choniates mentions some "Kocha" as leader of the 14 000 Cumans at Adrianople. That is probably the so-called Begbars Kochaevich (in Russian) meaning "Bebgars, of the Kochoba clan" (which was also subjugated to the Bordjogli dynasty) and he was mentioned in the Russian chronicles in 1190.
- In 1213 broke out a rebellion in Bdin, which was supported by three Cuman khans. A Hungarian chronicle mentions one of those khans as Karach.
- According to Ibn Khaldun, the Burdjogli clan was the third among the western Kipchaks (according to Ahmad-at-Tin (sp?) they were 6th among all) and together with Toksoba and Etioba formed the top crust. Terteroba was located at the Don river, were an old khan's dynasty, but lost their positing around the end of the XI c. to Kay and Olberli, though they did manage to regain some prominence just before the Mongol invasion when Kotyan Terteroba fled to Hungary (he was, however, a son of some Suto Terteroba, who might fit in the mod's timeframe).

Also, do you know of any other Cuman clans and dynasties from that time besides Olberli, Kay, Terteroba, Burdjogli, Itogli, Toksoba and Etioba? Or maybe their correct spellings...

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

I'm not an expert on Western Steppe peoples, but I can figure out the original forms of some of the tribes you mentioned:

Urosoba: Urus might be representing the geographical region Russia, because we know that Turco-Mongol peoples usually pronounced the name Rus' as Urus or Orus. Oba is a well-known Turkic name used for clans and groups of nomads living in felt tents.

Kay: Qay is the name used for Islamic sources for a Mongolic people known from Chinese sources as Ku-mo-xi 庫莫奚 / Xi 奚 and from Turkic inscriptions as Tatabï. However, I'm not sure if the Kay among the Cumans were the same with the Qay people living very east of them (and I mean, really very east).

Terteroba: Here again I tend see the name of a famous steppe people living very east, the Tatars. I'm also not sure if the Terteroba of the Cumans had anything to do with the Tatar people living in eastern Mongolia at that time.

Burdjogli & Itogli: Itogli is clearly Itoġlï which means "Son of Dog". From this name, I can suggest that Burdjogli might be a corrupted form of Börioġlï meaning "Son of Wolf".

Begbars: This is the correct form; it means "Lord Tiger".

Kochoba: Qočoba (Kochoba) means "Ram Clan".

Karach: This might have something to do with the Turkic word Qara meaning "Black".

Toksoba: This is most probably Toquz Oba meaning "Nine Clans".

Etioba: I'm not sure, but maybe this might be Itoba meaning "Dog Clan".

[Kilij Arslan]

Jan 24, 2010 2:35:46 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

Etioba: I'm not sure, but maybe this might be Itoba meaning "Dog Clan".

Yedi oba? (just the wild guess :-))

[nikebg]

In one other forum I asked one guy, Boztorgai Khan, who also specialises in steppe history, but he hasn't replied yet. However, in one older post of his he gives these 11 clans of the Western Kypchaks:
Toksoba (dokuz oba) = nine clans
İetioba (yedi oba) = seven clans
Burdjogli (Boruç-oğlu) = Burdj's Son
El’borili = Wolf's Place
Kangarogli = Kangar's Son
Andjoglı = Andj's Son
Durut = Durut
Kulabaogli = Kulaba's Son
Djartan = Djartan
Karabirkli = Black-Birkli
Kotan (Hotan) = Kotan

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Yedi oba? (just the wild guess :-))

Ah yes, that's much more possible

Kulabaogli = Kulaba's Son
Karabirkli = Black-Birkli

Kulabaogli might be Qulapaoġlï (Apa is a title, Qul means "Servant") or Kölapaoġlï (Köl means "Lake"). Karabirkli looks like Qarabörkli (or maybe Qarabörklig) meaning "Black Hat-wearer", which might be the same with Qaraqalpaq (what the Russians call Chernye Klobuki or "Black Hats").

[Kilij Arslan]

BTW, why translate El Borili as Wolf's Place..? Wolvish Folk seems credible to me, and it sound way cooler

Then again, shouldn't it be like 'humane wolves'..?

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

El here looks like the Il/El meaning "Realm", "Land", etc

[subuatai]

Hey fellas, I set up a thread for some info I am looking for but I may as well ask you about Kypchack/Cumans here eh..

Was the Confederation between Kypchack/Cumans in place around 1100?

Who was the Khan and do we know about any of his family? Heirs, daughters, wife?

What about militarily? Were they all mounted? light skirmishers?

[Ardavarz]

Maybe this can provide some historical data:
s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/70_Dateline/kipchak_dateline_En.htm
(I am not sure how accurate but still I am not an expert in Kipchaks.)

[subuatai]

Thanks for the link.