Kypchak

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

The Khwarazm-Shâh dynasty was of Turkoman origin but they relied greatly on the Kypchaks and Qanglis.

[Nomad (Daz)]

I know that Kutb ad-din Muhammad's son Atsyz was one who started the glory of Khwarazm. he started the compain against nomads especialy against kipchaks. More over we can say he brought independence to Khwarazm and started the new strong goverment on east of muslim world.

[Bor Chono]

I know one thing about Kypchaks.
The great khaan ordered to find them all. Following them Mongols invaded Russia and Europe. It is said that great khaan saw /Chingis khaan was a shaman/ big treat/danger/.
Do they were part of Naimans?

[Nomad (Daz)]

I heard about that! Thats why we are now around the world wondering and looking for each others!

[Nomad (Daz)]

Before Kimaks came to the land of Kypchaks. Kypchaks were seperated into small clans. Kimaks came organazed as whole and took the ruling class from the beginig. Later we united but the name Kimek was left. In Kimek kingdom was two nations. Kimeks(Naimans) & Kypchaks. Close to the 12 century Kypchaks started to rise and fight for the place under the sun.When mongols first time came Kypchaks first rose and united slovaks and kimeks before the invaders. It was a hard battle as no one wanted to work organazed. Never the less the battle was won in some ways! Mongols stoped the invesion. After that kypchaks prepared but Kimeks didn't want to fight. They even fought for the power to dominate Kypchaks. They went to far when they killed the only son of Khan Kotyan in attemp to cut the ruling heir. So Khan Kotyan wanted to avenge to son and started the war with kimeks(naimans). To save the nation kimeks called for help Batu Khan, who was just waiting for the moment. So he lunched the invasion. The enemy was large! No one could match it! Kimeks(naimans) joined the hord. Slovaks had their problems. They couldn't even unite themselves, not to say to march together against a great danger. So slovaks decided to fight individualy, every town for themselves. Kypchaks had no choice than to leave home as mongols wanted to terminate whole nation. They divide into two! One went down into Georgia where we had relatives and down and others went to Belgium with Khan Kotyan and most of the noble family. But Belgium King betrayed Khan Kotyan and had him killed with all his family! Kypchaks didn't forget it and crushed the royal cavalary and burned cities. They then moved south-west. Batu Khan just waited for that! ;D The moment Belgium King betrayed Kypchaks he declared war to Belgium. But he couldn't catch the noble families of Kypchaks. He had to stop the chaise as his army streched too far and became fanurable to Slovaks who still stugled and the army was too tired. So some who wanted to catch Kypchaks continued the persude and Batu Khan using the exuse of the death of the Great Khan in Mongoliya tured the army back. From that period Naimans are the blood enemies of all Kypchaks who now lives abroud the Deshty-Kypchak. The night before the battle of Ayn Jalut mamluks sang a song about the tragic live a Khan Kotyan and the betrayal of naimans.

[Bor Chono]

Some Seljuks(now Sartuul ovog=Sartuul tribe) live in Mongolia. Are they close relatives of Kypchak? We know that they are not Naimans.

[Nomad (Daz)]

IN history we have a mongol tribe that left Mongoliya and moved into Deshty-Qipchaks. As they settled in the new land they renamed the tribe and took the name of the new land! Qipchak!!! Much later when Chingiis Khaan invaded the stepps then passed out, leaving Batu Khan with the great mission to expand the land Batu Khaan needed a new and strong army. He found that Deshty-Qipchaks had fine nomad soldiers and he needed to organized them under something big! So he invided Mongol "Qipchak" to make the ruling family of all other tribes who were under the control of Batu. So later other tribes not connected to Qipchaks in any relation took the name of the ruling family and started to call themself Qipchaks. Mongol-Qipchaks. I don't think that relatives would fight relatives for someone else victory. So nowdays we have a little more people that try to connect their heratege and tribe to Qipchaks. But it is easy to uncover the truth.

[Bor Chono]

I heard that noble Kypchak warriors had MASKs I mean during the battle mongol shamans could not harm them.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

borchono said:

Some Seljuks(now Sartuul ovog=Sartuul tribe) live in Mongolia. Are they close relatives of Kypchak? We know that they are not Naimans.

The name Seljûqid corresponds to someone who lived in the Seljûqis Empire; Seljûqid wasn't an ethnic term, it was a political term like Roman or Ottoman.

Though the ruling family of the Seljûqid Empire was Oghuz.

[Bor Chono]

Ok now I got it.
When the great khan conquered their empire mongols called them SART-UULs(=Moon people, or Moon mountain, or People who crossed the moon)-Or they called themselves by this name. This name is also used to muslim people(mongols used them as soldiers) who still live in front regions of china. I heard that some called them Saracens-Who is Saracen?

But...Shape of Sartuul helmet looks like Kypchak helmet-konus. most Mongol helmet is made of the shape of Mongol Ger(=Yurt)-big half ball shape+top little half ball+/fire/spear.

Later we adopted their shape because we liked long pointed top. Maybe all muslims had such helmets...Is there any uniqueness in Kypchak armor.

And who are KAZAKs? there are also Russian kazaks. We call mongols who belived in muslim(or married with muslims) as Hasags.

[Nomad (Daz)]

Men! I would not suggest you to look into the meaning of work Kazakh. I am still in debate over this topic with historians. Just consider that word Kazakh uses all the people who left the heretage and kingdom due to the political resons or personal. Many historical figures such as sultans and halives also have been Kazakhs before recieving the suprime power. It was adopted later by small tribes who lived in central asia. To unite chose word Kazakh. (ilke chineese! Chineese consits of 33 nations and maybe more).

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

borchono said:

I heard that some called them Saracens-Who is Saracen?

Saracen is a general term used for all the Muslims, however it was originially a name used by the Romans for Arabs.

[Kolaksay]

A humble request referring to the origins of the Kazakhs: my master's thesis, "Qazaqjylyq," was written 16 years ago on Kazakh nationalism, 1900-1920. I worked solely from English language sources (approx. 700 titles), including some translations of Soviet and Tsarist works, but I did research those exhaustively. Nevertheless, my work is admittedly outdated and limited by language.
I did however come to some strong conclusions about the Kazakhs, mainly that they were self-created from myriad nomadic groups and especially that they exemplified something I called "nomad nationalism" (as distinguished from Western & Soviet scholars' ideas about nomadic society and especially "feudalism").
If anybody is interested, especially members who are Kazakhs, in reading any part of it (in English ) and commenting on my work, I would deeply appreciate it. (I have PDF'd my thesis and could email it.) Feedback from truly knowledgable scholars would be tremendous (even and especially if my work sucks). Please message me through this Forum if anyone is interested.
Here is my excerpt about Kazakh origins:
The Kazakhs evolved from the Turkic and Mongol nomads of the central Eurasian steppes who chose the free life of nomadry over the comfort of civilization. Chingiz Khan, upon conquering Central Asia, tore asunder the tribal groupings of the steppes and rearranged them for military purposes. The Chingizid dynasties which inherited the vast conquests of the 1200s had disintegrated into “hordes” and khanates, tribes, and clans by the 1400s.
The White Horde, a remnant of the Golden Horde, in Central Asia, had broken up, partly due to the pressure of Muscovite expansion into the European steppes. One group of Moslem Turks formed the Uzbek Khanate, which established hegemony over Central Asia under several strong leaders. However, many nomads resented Uzbek domination or preferred the free Steppe to civilization (or both). When the Uzbeks moved south to rule over the oases-states (called Mawaraunnahr), those tribes and bands preferring the steppe life returned to the northern grasslands.
These nomads – individuals, families, parts of clans and tribes, adventurers and indigenous remnants – came to call themselves and to be called “Kazakhs.” A Turkic word of disputed etymology, kazak (qazaq) referred from early times to those who defied imposed authority to live free on the Steppe – freebooters, raiders, rebels, mercenaries, and those who defied their hereditary leaders. The Russians adopted the term for their own unruly frontiersmen, the Kazaks – Anglicized as “Cossacks.”
Though the name was originally functional or descriptive, that is, “the free riders,” it quickly and imperceptibly became a national appellation. The Kazakhs are often described as traditionally tribal; in fact, there were Kazakh tribes, some left from indigenous peoples and some self-formed in the turmoil of the medieval era, but cutting across the various tribal and subtribal identities was the all-encompassing notion of “Kazakhness,” or Qazaqjylyq. Within the pre-modern, nomadic milieu, this notion of over-arching unity was institutionalized by the mechanism of genealogy: non-Kazakhs became Kazakhs by genealogical adoption, often done blatantly, with the goal being to unite all the Kazakh persons and kin-lines into descendants of the mythical Alash, literally the “father” of his country. Thus, the clans, families, and tribes of Kazakhstan were constantly modifying elaborate genealogies linking themselves all to eponymous ancestors, so that by the time the 19th century ethnographers reached them, the Kazakhs formed a distinct nation.
The origins of this nation was political, not ethnic. By the 1500s, the Kazakhs constituted a single people with a single language, a definite territory, and a common economy. As they expanded from the core area of Semirechye (Jeti Su) into the vast Desht-i-Kypchak, growing in both numbers and territory, they developed a typical medieval Eurasian nomadic khanate state.

[Nomad (Daz)]

Thanks a lot! You saved them from my work which looks much poor and terreble in information than yours. That best explain Kazakhs.
Do you have any information about "Alash"? I heard about it but coudn't get the hand on it.
Intresting thing more I search about Kypchaks I find their story same as Kazakhs. What I mean word Kypchaks have the old translation which is "people with the big tragedy" or "unlucky ones". Kyrgiz claim they have the history of more than 2000 years and as a proof they talk about Enissei and the epick hero Manas. They also claim that Kypchaks fought with them from the begining with changing victory but word "kipchak" in literature only appears in 7th century. So as most historians consider Kypchaks are Sayantos long forgotten nation distroyed by Oguz khaganate or some thing like that.
Would be happy if you will comment on this but more greatfull if you will comment of work of Kolaksay!!!

[Kolaksay]

Thank you for your kind words, Nomad.
I am still struggling to work out the complex events preceding the Kazakhs, the period from about 600 AD-1500 AD, so I defer entirely to others regarding the Kypchaks and the nomads of Desht-i-Kypchak during that time.
The best modern English-language source I have found about the Kazakhs is: Martha Brill Olcott, The Kazakhs, Hoover Inst. Press, 1987. The following quote about the etymology of "kazakh" and the story of Alash is from her book (pg 4):
"Many theories have been advanced to explain the origin of the term [Kazakh]. Some speculate that it comes from the Turkish verb qaz (to wander) ... or that it is the combined form of Kazakh tribal names, Kaspy and Saki; or that it traces from the Mongol word khasaq (a wheeled cart...). Another explanation advanced in the 19th century is that the term comes from the Turkish words ak (white) and kaz (goose), from a popular Kazakh legend of a white steppe goose that turned into a princess, who in turn gave birth to the first Kazakh.
"The tale of the white goose is only one of many legends of the formation of the first Kazakh tribe. The most celebrated is that of Alash (or Alach). In most of these tales, Alash is depicted as the founder of the Kazakh people, whose three sons each established one of the three Kazakh hordes. In other tales he is described merely as a great khan whose last direct 'descendant,' Tokhtamish, was killed at the battle of Saray Su (1395) when Timur (Tamerlane) defeated the Golden Horde. There is no hisotrical evidence for the existence of a Kazakh nation at this time, but the legend of Alash has always played an important unifying role for the Kazakhs; the first Kazakh political party and autonomous Kazakh government (1917) were named the Alash Orda, the Horde of Alash."
(Which reminds me: my personal hero among the Kazakhs of 1900-1920 was the intellectual leader Ali Khan Bukeikhanov (1869-1932). Is he remembered in modern Kazakhstan? And how is he regarded?)