Hungarians

[Maotun]

Jan 31, 2009 6:02:00 GMT 3 hjernespiser said:

The Hun in Varkhon is the Xion, one of the Hephthalites.

Of course they can be those.
But they were considered as a branch of the Huns as I mentioned earlier.
for i.e. at Procopius (Book I. ch. 3):
"the Ephthalitae Huns, who are called White Huns... the Ephtalitae are of the stock of the Huns in fact as well as in name..."

I think they were among the European Pseudo-Avars with other Xiongnu clans, as I've written earlier in the summary list.

[hjernespiser]

As far as I know, the Chinese didn't consider the Ephthalites the same as the Huns.

[Maotun]

Jan 31, 2009 6:54:57 GMT 3 hjernespiser said:

As far as I know, the Chinese didn't consider the Ephthalites the same as the Huns.

it's ok, but the Byzantines did,
moreover as you pointed out earlier, the Hephtalite was a originally a clan, what's name became the name of the White Huns after they started ruling them. So Hephtals, Uars and Xuns are tribes. Later the Hephtalitae was a confederation, a tribal union.
This is the method as the steppe works.

But in the other side, I think the Xuns were Huns/Xiongnu, as in the Sogdian letters.

[Azadan Januspar]

It is more accurately "Xiun". Hephtalites are indeed a good issue these days, cause this probablity that they are a branch of Huns is understood through Byzantine works and not their neighbours'.

[Maotun]

Chuban state (Yueban)

The Chuy Hun tribes were also collectively called Üeban (Pinyin: Yueban) "Weak Huns" by the Chinese historians.
The "Weak Huns" remained in Semirechje, where they established the principality of Chuban (commonly called Yueban in Chinese literature), which existed until the 480s CE.

The strongest tribes (known to Europeans as "the Huns) migrated towards Europe, where they conquered the Iranian Alans and Germanic Goths, and later attacked the Roman Empire. This Hunnic invasion of Europe led to severe upheavals among European peoples, giving the Huns a reputation in Europe as bandits and robbers, while the Chinese authors characterized them as the most acculturate of all "barbarians".

In 448 Toba Dao received an embassy from the Chuban (Yueban). Negotiations, recorded in history, meant an alliance which could have had only one purpose, a war with Rouran Khaganate. If the Chubans (Yueban) would pressure Jujans from the west, the Rourans would lose any freedom to maneuver. Though no direct records exist about the war in Dzungaria, by the course of the events, there was no peace, and the Nomadic empire of Rouran began to decline.

The Chuban (Yueban) state survived to the end of 480s, until its independence was destroyed by the Teleuts, who had split from the Rouran in 487. But the Teleuts' dominance was short-lived, first the Hephthalite conquered them in 495-496, then Rouran crushed them, and finally in 547, the Turkut Uyghur people conquered the Teleuts.

No records address Chuy Huns' religion, shamanic cures, and magic, though Chinese annals depict outward religious rites and magic. A narration about Yuebans tells about sorcerers, able to cause frost and rainstorm. During a war with Jujans, Yueban sorcerers incited a snowstorm against Jujans, who had so many frost-bitten that they had to stop their campaign and retreat.
A similar legend is later told about Avar sorcerers in a war with Francs...

Based on his reconstructions of the events of the Chuban (Yueban) history, L.N.Gumilev argued against a widespread view that the Rouran were the "Abars" (Pseudo-Avars) who attacked the Sabirs, starting a "migration of steppe people", because the Chuban (Yueban) state separated the Rouran Empire from the Siberian peoples, and therefore the Rouran territories did not border the Sabirs.

I also, along with Gumilev, Pritsak, etc. consider a part of these Yuebans was the European Avars, Varhuns.

Dr. Obrusánszky takes that the Hungarian name Csaba comes from this Xiongnu title name of Choban.

So I think these people are in key role in the Xiongnu, Hun, Uarhun (Avar), and Hungarian related history and research (but to general steppe history too).

[Maotun]

Maps, around AD 500

[Maotun]

Jan 31, 2009 19:41:13 GMT 3 Azadan Januspar said:

It is more accurately "Xiun". Hephtalites are indeed a good issue these days, cause this probablity that they are a branch of Huns is understood through Byzantine works and not their neighbours'.

Not sure, I think it must be examined thoroughly.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Yes, the European Avars.
I don't remember exactly but not only one, I guess either Mugan or Istemi and Istemi's son too.
It is in Menandros, and Simocattes.

I checked them, Tardu Qaġan (Ištämi Yabġu's successor) mentions Avars as Avars, not as Huns

Interesting that in Hungary this name lived through until nowadays too in places' and persons' names.
For example there is a city of Varkon, with the remains of a great Avar city and cemetery in its countryside.

And also the city of Sarwar, mentioned in Charlemagne's chronicle still exists.

That's interesting

As far as I know, the Chinese didn't consider the Ephthalites the same as the Huns.

The Chinese traveller Song Yun (could not find the characters for his name) says that the Ephtalites were relatives of the Asian Huns (Xiongnu 匈奴).

[Maotun]

Feb 1, 2009 22:58:30 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

Yes, the European Avars.
I don't remember exactly but not only one, I guess either Mugan or Istemi and Istemi's son too.
It is in Menandros, and Simocattes.

I checked them, Tardu Qaġan (Ištämi Yabġu's successor) mentions Avars as Avars, not as Huns

As far as I know, the Chinese didn't consider the Ephthalites the same as the Huns.

The Chinese traveller Song Yun (could not find the characters for his name) says that the Ephtalites were relatives of the Asian Huns (Xiongnu 匈奴).

Well,
I also reanalyzed the sources.
Their pre-Eu-Avar situation is rather complicated, but

first to the Avar-Uarhuns:
In Menander's account (fr. 43) of Valentinus' embassy to the Turkish Chagan during Justin II's reign, the Chagan disparagingly refers to the Avars as Varchunnitae, a name which could be rendered as Var-Huns, i.e. Avar Huns :

The population who was called Avar by Byzantines, was called Varchonite by Turxanthos, Istemi's son:
The source here is the diplomatic mission of Valentinos (576), sent by the Byzantine Emperor to react to the previous envoy of the Türk chagan and renew the alliance with Istemi.
But Valentinos and his fellow envoys were threatened by the Turk prince - Turxanthos - with execution because the Emperor took into his alliance "the escaped dependants of the Turks," the Varchonites, he said in his rage: "And your Emperor will expiate as well, since he tells me he is devoted to our friendship, while in the meantime he makes an alliance with the Varchonites (literally Uarxuns), who are fleeing from us.".

In 350s were the appearance of new nomads in Tocharistan. The Wei Shu defines them as Xiongnu, one another Chinese source defines their name as Hua, which was the self designation of Uar. They minted coins, on which they named themselves OIONO in Greek-based Bactrian writing, on which this is the transcription of Hiuno. Later in 457 the Hephtal dynasty comes to power and they became part of the Hephtalites (ended 557).
The Yueban were also composed of Xiongnu clans (ended 547).

So if we summarize all source, one thing is sure: that the Ea-Avars, Varchuns, was of Xiongnu/Hun origin.

One Slav source mentions in Europe first the Obors, then the White Ugri, but together. So it can be said that the Eu-Avars were most probably the composition of Yuaban-Xiongnu and Hephtal-White Huns.
In this time also was a Hun attack in Armenia, an Armenian source named them as Ugni. Another mentions that these Ugnis were the earlier Huns. So they united with the remnants of the former Eu-Huns, but later split again to parts.

[Maotun]

Dec 21, 2007 17:28:57 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

The Yuèzhì 月氏 were highly probably Tokharians (Inde-Europeans of Eastern Turkistan).

As I said earlier I started reconstruct the early steppe languages.
I think I already have some results:

Hun/Xiongnu/Hungarian language

Uralic etymologies


Hun
hun, khun, kan, kom, hím etc. - male, man, human


Yuezhi / Jazygs

I don't know yet that the Yue-zhi were the Tokharians or else, but more probably they were the pre-Jazygs of 1st c. AD.

"There are numerous theories about the derivation of the name Yuezhi and none has yet found general acceptance. According to Zhang Guang-da the name Yuezhi is a transliteration of their own name for themselves, the Visha ("the tribes"), being called the Vijaya in Tibetan."

I don't know where did the Chinese take
this word/name from in 7th BC or 1st BC century
(The first known reference to the Yuezhi was made in 645 BCE by the Chinese politician Guan Zhong in his Guanzi 管子(Guanzi Essays: 73: 78: 80: 81). The dates of the most common version of this book are disputed however, and it may date to as late as 1st century BCE.)

but I think that this is definitely an Uralic word (the same as the Jazyges, or Jassi), what means bowmen or archers in Finn-Uralic more precisely in Hungarian language (or in Xiong-yu as a Chinese would say today (literally in Xiong language)).

What is more interesting in these forms of the words even the
affixes is in Ugric grammar, the: yi/íj, means bow, with the -zi/asz is bowman, archer, the IE form is already in Hung. plural to which the IEs made the -s plural again.

Yue-chi, Yue-zhi, Jazigs, Jassygs:
the Chinese form means: archer, bowman,
the IE/Latin is with the FU -g/-k plural affix, which is archers, bowmen, and again the -s.

the Proto-Uralic root is *joŋ(k)sV. - bow
Finnish: jousi, joutsi
Saam: juoksa , juiks, jūẋs, jūss, juxsi
Hung.: íj
Khanty: joxke, joxi
etc.
in Hung.: íj-ász (finn. jouszi), Yu-zi, and -k/g: ja-zi-g.

bowmen, archers

If this is true that means that the Hungarian language is almost the same as was in the Xiongnu time, 2000-2500 years before.


Bayan
Bajan

it is said to be the either Turkic/Mongolian word Bay-an, rich, etc.

for example: "A number of Avar time skeletons from Hungary are Mongoloids, Bayan was probably Mongolian word, evidence that Avars were Mongol Jujuns"

this word Bay is wether a loan or not but it is in Hungarian language too, with the form Bő, it can be a Nostratic root too, so irrelevant.
but I think the word bajan is not this but means thunderbolt (or lightning)

with Proto-Uralic root of: *päjä - light, or fire or storm, etc.
baj, viy, paj, etc.
Saami: båjan thunder, pajān storm, lightning
Komi: bia, bija bia. fire, päjwä thunder, blitz etc.
Hung.: villám (from arch. vilyan/m) - thunderbolt, lightning, vihar (bihar) storm etc.

some kind of Lightning God worship was recorded from the Caucasus Huns by the Armenians, and when a thunderbolt striked they considered it as the God's action, and also the tun, tünd, tan is an archaic form of the word god, knowledge and all mysticism. So it means also God's fire arrow.

also the Bayan khagan swore to God with some kind of these things to the Byzantines

Thunderbolt


medos, kamos
medos was a honey drink, kamos was also a type of drink

also an Uralic/F-Ugric (undecided: either a Proto-IE loan from bef, 3000BC!, but in IE is only sweat)

Proto: *met/med/mek,*meti honey

Finnish: mesi, mede
Saam mietđ, mītt, mieht
Eston: mesi, mee)
Mordv: med́, mäd́
Mari: müj
Hungarian: méz

-os, FU/Hung. os isz es, us, etc. - drink, flavour, taste, etc.

medos = honey drink


kamos

Proto: *kump
Khanty: kŏmp ẋump
Mansi: kop, ẋop, kump, ẋump
Hung. hab
means mousse, cream, foam, belly, etc.

kamos: mousse, belly, cream, foamed drink.


Maotun
Maodun
this is Bator, Baghadur

Hung.: brave, courageous

more archaic form is Boghadur, Bahadur
because today Hung. Turul was in form in Codex Cumanicus 14th c. Toghurul

Bator is said to be a Turkic loan in Hung. but if it is, then it is a reborrowing.
because this word has Uralic inner etymology:
Bog, is either the above Bő, means chief, etc.

but more probably:
its Uralic root is *pök, means pierce, thrust, knife, sword, etc.
pök is bök, bog, etc,
buk, buga, bak, etc.

in Altaic the root for the word buga (bull) is mük-o: man, male, but it is the same as in Hung/manysi, mag, mok: man, male etc., so irrelevant

so it is either bull, goat, or sword,
had is Uralic army, military
ur - lord, commander, but also means god

but the Bull also was a kind of God at Xiongnu/Avars.

and in Hung. and Xiongnu and Hun mythology the Khanyu/King was considered to be the Son of God. Son of endless sky, Tengri, etc., see Attila.
In Hung. myth the God's symbol was the falcon or hawk, like in Egypt: Horus, the Falcon Wargod.
But the Bull was also in some kind of worship.
the word Dulo is a raging bull, what was the name of the Xiongnu/Hun dynasty according to Pristak,
this was the Hung.: Dsula/Gyula of the tribe Magyar: the main warlord of the Hungarians.

so either is Bull Warlord, Chief Warlord, Sword Warlord, etc. or

Bull Wargod or The Main Wargod, Sword Wargod

I can't recontstruct so far the exact regular sound changes, so it cannot be decided (perhaps the mentioned computational program will help).

this later become the Hungarian name Bator and similar meaning to all Xiongu territory's surrounding languages


Toumen

Hungarian Tömény,
Türkic tuman, etc.

it is either Tö-mén, or Tömény, or Töm-mén
or all
straight, hard, raw, pack. stb. smoke, drink, but also many, very many, etc.
tő also means root, like in gök

root is töm: assembly
mén is Hung. stallion, or a herd or stud of horses

so it means infinite assembled horsestud, or formated, packed etc. horseherd, etc.
and hence why it is ten thousand horse military unit in Turkic/Mongolic/Hungarian


Jie / Ket
castrated sheep

may be a coincidence
like in Chinese
FU: ji, je, juh - sheep
keta: remained in slang, a pejorative to a crippled, lame, etc.


Topa

may be a coincidence

like in Chinese
remained in slang: a pejorative as the above or a jug, bastard, etc.


Ordu

Odu, Horda

same as in Turkic/Mongolic but its root is hord- to bear, wear, etc.
and silt, drift, i.e. of a river

Odu
den, lair, earth

ord- roar, howl

Ordas
(Ordas) wolf


Tarkhan

means bald male or khan - lord, chief
tar kan

they were the Avar Khagans's company
and also responsible of tax collectors

remained in slang: tarhálni - means to ponce, wheedle of money

also one Hungarian tribe from the seven: Tarjan, as in Hung. archaic and dialect forms: j is the same as h, and a can be u,
it can mean Tarhun too.


Mundzukus

Hung. Bendekúz

Uralic root is: pök, bengke, szamojéd. mundzu
same as above, but in derived form is beard too.
koz, kos is ram

so, is either Bearded One, or Bearded Ram,

but more probably

Piercing or
Battering Ram


Attila

PU/FU root: *atti- otti- , etc. to beware from, dread from, etc., and
el, il, ila, lel / osz, esz, asz: breast, mind, psyche, soul, spirit, live, air, airspirit, air god, etc.

The Dreaded God, or the Bewared Seer, the Feared Spirit, etc.


I've reached so far yet.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

None of them are right. Most of the words given have a clear Turkic etymology. You should get rid of claiming everything to be Hungarian.

[hjernespiser]

Maotun,

You might want to have a look at this too www.zompist.com/chance.htm

[hjernespiser]

Feb 1, 2009 22:58:30 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

As far as I know, the Chinese didn't consider the Ephthalites the same as the Huns.

The Chinese traveller Song Yun (could not find the characters for his name) says that the Ephtalites were relatives of the Asian Huns (Xiongnu 匈奴).

Didn't they consider them to be Yuezhi?

[Maotun]

Feb 2, 2009 21:21:04 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

You should get rid of claiming everything to be Hungarian.

It stands far from me, but at the same time, what is that, that is that.

[Maotun]

Feb 2, 2009 23:49:19 GMT 3 hjernespiser said:

Maotun,

You might want to have a look at this too www.zompist.com/chance.htm

Thx, but I knew it already.