|
Post by realhun on Apr 11, 2009 22:42:12 GMT 3
Again, I never said what I stated was 100% accurate. I merely said I believe nobody can say one way or the other with 100% certainty. Actually, the words Avar and Bayan are a lot more similar to Bavaria and Bayern than the Celtic and Germanic words that were mentioned. However, again as people mixed together physically, culturally and linguistically, don't you think it's very possible that each group had an influence on one another.? Who's to say Bavaria and Bayern aren't hybrid names evolving from the Avar, Celtic and Germanic people who lived in the area of Bavaria during the time of the Avar Empire in Europe. Fact is, the Avars had very significant settlements, aka (walled fortified cities) located throughout Europe, including ones located in Eastern Austria, Bavaria and East Germany all the way North to the Baltic Sea. Are you familiar with their network of fortified walled cities named the Avar Ring? The Avar's domination and control of present day Bohemia and all of what was called Moravia was very certain and lasted for a very long time. You think the Avars didn't have any cultural and linguistic impact on this region of Europe?! All the things I've stated are well documented and in recent years there's been more evidence of the Avar's cultural impact on Europe from many more Avar artifacts being found throughout Europe during the time of their empire in Europe. The names Avar and Bayan are very well documented long before the Avars invaded Europe. When we talk about cultural and linguistic influences, I can use my surname as a prime example of how a name can change by just one letter. My Hungarian/Magyar Grandma told me our last name was originally spelled "Hajos" and that at some point in time the t was added to the end of our name making it "Hajost". "Hajos" is definitely an ancient Magyar name! However, I've done a lot of research on the name "Hajost" and the only place in Europe where I've been able to find any significant number of people with this name are located in Southern Poland. However, the name "Hajost" is definitely not a Polish, German or Slavic name. It's a very unique name! Actually, I've never found any people, names or name places in present day Hungary with this name! The only names and name places I've been able to find in present day Hungary are spelled the way my surname used to be spelled, "Hajos" and also "Hajosi". My Grandpa always said he was pure Magyar and he only spoke Magyar, however, his surname was spelled "Hajos" with a "t" added on the end. Go figure that! Also, the village where he was originally from was located on the very Northern fringe of "The Old Hungarian Empire Border" for about 1,000 years. The name of his village prior to the end of WWI was Podvilk and this name still exists today. Actually, my parents have visited this village and found a beautiful church my father's family built having been decorated with lots of fine wood carvings. My father's family were wood workers and master wood carvers. I don't believe the name Podvilk is Magyar. It doesn't sound like it to me. My last name is a prime example of how a name or name place can change by just one letter. However, the exact origin of my surname is and ultimately always will be a mystery. It's definitely a unique name in the world. Also, I believe the names Bavaria and Bayern are unique and there's no way anyone today can prove this to be right or wrong! I never said the Swabians were from Northern Germany. What I implied is that both the Hansiatic and Swabian Germans are located North of Bavaria and this is true. The Hansiatic Germans are located in Northern Germany and the Swabians are located in Central Germany. Actually, I've visited the city of Stuttgart which is located in the heart of the Swabian Region of Germany. So, I know exactly where Swabians live. In regards to coloring, I never said there aren't any people living in the rest of Germany who don't have darker coloring. What I stated was a general comparison and not a 100% certain comparison across the board. It's funny to see how someone can take what someone else states out of context and derive a completely different meaning.
|
|
|
Post by Temüjin on Apr 12, 2009 1:23:47 GMT 3
Bayern (Bavaria) derives from Baiuwaria, origin of which is disputed. it is also unclear if bavarians replaced the Rugi or if the Rugi changed their name to bavarians. incidentally the Rugi have been part of the Hun Confederacy. I never said the Swabians were from Northern Germany. What I implied is that both the Hansiatic and Swabian Germans are located North of Bavaria and this is true. The Hansiatic Germans are located in Northern Germany and the Swabians are located in Central Germany. Actually, I've visited the city of Stuttgart which is located in the heart of the Swabian Region of Germany. So, I know exactly where Swabians live. no you don't. Swabia is WEST of bavaria. north of bavaria is Franconia and Hessia which is Central Germany....and technically Stuttgart is on the northern border of historical Swabia, it's just in the heart of the modern federal state of Baden-Württemberg.
|
|
|
Post by realhun on Apr 12, 2009 9:13:40 GMT 3
OK then.....well we're getting pretty detailed here aren't we? First of all I was referring to where most modern day Swabians live and where Stuttgart is located. That's definitely North of Bavaria. Actually, to be more precise, it's Northwest of Bavaria and not directly West of Bavaria. Stuttgart is located at the very Southern part of Central Germany which is Northwest of Bavaria, right?! When I was riding on a train through Germany I stopped in Stuttgart. From there I traveled to Bavaria whereby the train moved in a Southeasterly direction. I don't think I was smoking something or had too much to drink that day either! ;D I just looked on a map to make sure what I just stated is correct. Actually, who's splitting hairs? This wasn't even the main focus of my posting! ;D One of the main points I made was the fact that Bavarians and Bavaria are unique compared to the rest of Germany, that's all......
|
|
|
Post by Temüjin on Apr 12, 2009 14:58:59 GMT 3
yeah Ok but Swabia is totally not Central Germany in any way. Swabia today is southern half or 2/3 of the federal state Baden-Württemberg, Alsace (Elsaß) in France, German speaking Switzerland, the country of Liechtenstein, the federal state of Vorarlberg in Austria and the district Swabia in the federal state of Bavaria. so half of Swabia isn't even part of Germany anymore and you're talking about Central Germany... maybe we should also clarify what exactly Bavaria is. true Bavaria is this: modern federal state of Bavaria minus the district of Swabia, minus the district of Franconia, plus Tyrolia in Austria plus the northern part of Alto-Adige (southern Tyrolia) in Italy. as you can see, modern Bavaria and "real" Bavaria are not the same and about half of modern Bavaria isn't bavarian and the other half isn't even part of Germany.
|
|
|
Post by realhun on Apr 13, 2009 8:24:37 GMT 3
Wow! How did we get so far off track in regards to what my original posting was all about?! I think most people on this web site know the European countries' borders have changed dramatically since the end of WWI and WW II. Heck, Czechoslovakia didn't even exist as a country prior to the end of those wars. However, for about 1,500 years this territory was part of the Hun, Avar and Magyar Empires with the exception of a very brief interlude with King Samo. Don't forget my original posting referenced Swabians from Germany and not "Swabia" and Swabians from other countries. Also, don't forget I also mentioned Hansiatic Germans being to the North of Bavaria too not just Swabians. I never said all Swabians live to the North of Bavaria! However, a significant number of Swabians do live to the Northwest of Bavaria in Germany! You can just as easily say that Stuttgart is located at the very South Central region of Central Germany as you can say it's located at the very North Central region of Southern Germany. It's a matter of semantics! I think most people including my German friends think of Bavaria as being Southern Germany when you make reference specifically to Germany from a territorial, cultural and linguistic standpoint. I dare you to contradict me on this point! ;D In Germany, I think of Stuttgart as being the cultural heart and major city for Swabians and Muenchen as being the cultural heart and major city for Bavarians. As you know, if you look at a map of Germany, Stuttgart is definitely located at a significant distance Northwest of Muenchen. This is a fact! I've been on the train ride from Stuttgart to Muenchen and we were definitely moving to the Southeast and it took a significant amount of time to get to Muenchen! Again, somehow you got us way off of the main focus of my original posting! ;D LOL
|
|
|
Post by hjernespiser on Apr 13, 2009 8:39:36 GMT 3
How do you pronounce Hajost? Try to spell it out phonetically for an English speaker.
|
|
|
Post by realhun on Apr 13, 2009 17:23:40 GMT 3
In English you pronounce the name like this - phonetically: (hay - jost), whereby you pronounce "hay" like a bail of "hay" whereby the letter "a" is a long vowel or like you're calling for someone - "hey!", you pronounce "jost" like the word "toast", the "j" with a "g" sound like in the word "jet" plane, the "o" with a long sound like in the word "token" and "toast". When trying to remember how to pronounce my surname in English I always tell people to pretend like they have a friend named Joe they're calling for like "Hey Joe!" and add an "st" on the end pronounced like "st" in the word "stop".
When my grandparents came to America at Ellis Island they couldn't speak any English and the customs official removed the umlaut, (two dots) over the "o" and told them the way to pronounce their surname in English is how I just mentioned it. My family has been pronouncing our surname in America this way ever since.
However, my grandma told me our surname back in Hungary was and is supposed to be pronounced like this: (haa - yoosh), whereby you pronounce "a" as a short vowel like in the German name "Haas" like you're laughing "hah! hah!", the "j" with a "y" sound like in the word for the color "yellow", the "o" makes the same sound as in the word "you", the "s" makes a "sh" sound like in the word "sheep" and the original name didn't have the "t" on the end. So, you don't pronounce this letter.
Actually, every time I've mentioned how my surname used to be and is supposed to be pronounced people always say it sounds much better the way it used to be pronounced. They say "your name shouldn't have been changed and that it's no less confusing in regards to how the name is pronounced". Oh well......My grandpa couldn't speak any English when he met the US Customs Official, he was just trying to fit into American culture and he was in no position to disagree with him.
|
|
|
Post by hjernespiser on Apr 13, 2009 21:07:43 GMT 3
Yea, many Hungarian names get mangled by Americans. Nagy is commonly pronounced "neigh-gee" with the g hard like in good. It's supposed to be like "nudge".
Hajós is more like high-yosh. The a is much further back and "darker" than anything in English. It can sound like an o or u to English ears (compare "nudge" above). The o is just that, "oh" held longer. The o in "you" is too far forward, but if your family was spelling it with an umlaut that would be appropriate, although not standard Hungarian.
I was curious about the s because in Hungarian spelling the s stands for "sh" while sz stands for "s". In Polish they use sz for "sh" and s for "s".
Also, please see the "For realhun" thread I started under the general board.
|
|
|
Post by Temüjin on Apr 13, 2009 21:33:15 GMT 3
Wow! How did we get so far off track in regards to what my original posting was all about?! I think most people on this web site know the European countries' borders have changed dramatically since the end of WWI and WW II. Heck, Czechoslovakia didn't even exist as a country prior to the end of those wars. However, for about 1,500 years this territory was part of the Hun, Avar and Magyar Empires with the exception of a very brief interlude with King Samo. Don't forget my original posting referenced Swabians from Germany and not "Swabia" and Swabians from other countries. Also, don't forget I also mentioned Hansiatic Germans being to the North of Bavaria too not just Swabians. I never said all Swabians live to the North of Bavaria! However, a significant number of Swabians do live to the Northwest of Bavaria in Germany! You can just as easily say that Stuttgart is located at the very South Central region of Central Germany as you can say it's located at the very North Central region of Southern Germany. It's a matter of semantics! I think most people including my German friends think of Bavaria as being Southern Germany when you make reference specifically to Germany from a territorial, cultural and linguistic standpoint. I dare you to contradict me on this point! ;D In Germany, I think of Stuttgart as being the cultural heart and major city for Swabians and Muenchen as being the cultural heart and major city for Bavarians. As you know, if you look at a map of Germany, Stuttgart is definitely located at a significant distance Northwest of Muenchen. This is a fact! I've been on the train ride from Stuttgart to Muenchen and we were definitely moving to the Southeast and it took a significant amount of time to get to Muenchen! Again, somehow you got us way off of the main focus of my original posting! ;D LOL Swabia is NOT, i repeat, NOT Central German in any way, neither geographically, nor linguistically nor any other way at all, period. one train ride is nothing compared to actually living there and i drive constantly to Stuttgart by car and i can actually read maps, stop repeating crap information. and Hanseatic is merely a political term, there's nothing like "hanseatic Germans" neither linguistically.
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 13, 2009 23:48:20 GMT 3
|
|
|
Post by ALTAR on Apr 14, 2009 1:36:21 GMT 3
This fictional claim is nearly same with Alpine Mountains name was descended from an Oghuz Title Alp ;D
|
|
|
Post by hjernespiser on Apr 14, 2009 5:49:16 GMT 3
"The slavicized version of the name Auerbach is Авербах (Cyrillic alphabet) = Averbakh (Latin alphabet), which transliterates to the Hebrew alphabet as אוּרבּך." Interesting. When this subject came up I couldn't help but recall a Russian immigrant who worked at a company I used to work for whose surname was Averbukh. I guess that's supposed to be it. Just throwing some more fuel on this fire... How about the name Avaricum? *duck* Catalan is supposed to come from Goth-Alan!
|
|
|
Post by realhun on Apr 14, 2009 9:19:42 GMT 3
Throw more fuel on the fire! Let's see if we can build a bonfire! ;D I noticed someone is still focusing on a minor point of my original posting. I'm only clarifying some factual info. because of this. Fact is Bavaria is considered to be Southern Germany. The Stuttgart area is where many Swabians live in Germany today and it's definitely Northwest of Muenchen. In regards to Hanseatic: I know there are the Hanseatic States which are located in the very Northern region of Germany. I never used this term specifically in regards to only culture or language. The main focus of my original posting was really more from a physical ethnic and geographic standpoint relating to the physical features of Germans in a general sense, not 100% across the board. ;D I know Germans haven't been a pure race or ethnic group for many centuries! I'm familiar with the various regions of Germany, it's culture and language because I had advanced placement history courses in high school and college, I studied the German Language in college, my girlfriend in college was from Berlin and I had a number of friends in college who were from various regions of Germany including Bavaria. Also, many German immigrants settled in the area where I'm from in the US during the late 1800's. They came from the Northern Hanseatic States whereby they built homes with their distinct architectural characteristics. Wow! We're still way off the main focus of my original posting! ;D I think we've spent a lot of time talking about Germany and it's geography. The main focus of my original posting was about the Avars not Germans. The main focus was about their settlements throughout Europe including Bavaria, Eastern Austria and East Germany. It really wasn't about the geography of modern day Germany. Oh well...... ;D LOL
|
|