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Post by aca on Oct 3, 2007 10:35:37 GMT 3
Have I posted anything in non-english without translation? Anout Bulgarian words being present in Croatian and serbian The word kushta has no analogue in Slavic languages,excep Eastern "Serbian" dialects, Eastern Serbia is populated mainly by Bulgarians, also not to mention the Panonain Bulgars and Serbia being a part of the Bulgarian Empire for a very long time. Kuche in bulgarian does not mean "small" dog but just a dog. Kutre is a small dog (same as tajik or pashto Kutray). Again, I say it - These words could be seen on Bulgar inscriptions as well as many other words. So what does that mean - the Bulgars spoke an indo-euroean language. They wrote from left to right, unlike the turkic people who wrote from up to down or from right to left, had indo-europen grammar and mostly indoeuropen words(mostly iranic) and a few turkic ones. 1. The word Kucha (kuæa) is a standard word for "home" in Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian. In Eastern Serbia people say "dom" just like Russians. For example in western Serbian dialect "I'm going home" would be "idem kuchi", but in eastern it would be "idem doma". 2. Bulgarians in Serbia live only in Dimitrovgrad and Bosilegrad, towns took from you in the 2nd Balkan War. My father is from place called Crna Trava, just near Bulgarian border, and guess what... we are not Bulgarians 3. How long was Serbia part of Bulgarian Empire? Croatia and Slovenia were never a part of Bulgarian Empire, but they also use the word "kucha". 4. In Serbian the word "kuche" means "small dog" because suffix "-che" is used for deminutive (like "patka" - duck; "pache" - small duck). "Kutre" is a dog cub. Something about inscriptions... In central Mongolia there is one inscription called Bugut inscription. It was written in Sogdian language and the story goes about Blue Turk kaghans. So using your method of making conclusions, people would say that Blue Turks spoke Sogdian language. ;D
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Post by Balkhani on Oct 3, 2007 14:58:16 GMT 3
1. I've been to eastern Serbia and have heard how they talk there. In Bulgarian it would be "Otivam v kushti" . 2. In Nis too and some villages. My great-grand father is from a village called Smolcha, now in Serbia (before around 44' it was in Bulgaria). 3.Around 40(or 50) years. First became a provine of the Bulgarian empire during the time of Simeon. Then it was a prvince again at the time of Peter I, Ivan Asen, Kaloyan etc. Not to mention the kuber Bulgarians who settled in Macedonia and Northern moesia. Then there were the Panonia Bulgarians who lived in present day Croatia,Hungary and parts of slovenia (also, slovenia, then Velikomoravia had a strong diplomatic binds with Bulgaria). The Bogomils who went to Bosnia and Croatia too. 4. In Bulgarian the form for deminutive is "tse" - detentse(young child), momichentse(little girl), momchentse(little boy)... The most important inscriptions in Bulgaria are in turkic, but the regular runic ones (of priests, ordinary people etc.) are in iranic. now it's normal for our rulers to write in turkic, which was an ofiicial language of the Hun union. But the ordinary people obviously used the language they spoke.
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Post by aca on Oct 3, 2007 16:16:58 GMT 3
I have never heard about Bulgarians in Nish, or about any Bulgarian village near it . In fact the Nis dialect is much more closer to central Serbian than for example dialect of Leskovats (which is considered to have a typical eastern Serbian dialect). Exactly. So, do you think that period of time short like this is enough for adoption of a word so frequent in any language as the word "house" is? Yes. There are many suffixes for deminutive in Serbian -che ("lutka" - doll; "luche" - little doll ; "devojka" - girl; "devoyche" - little girl), -tse ("dete" - child; "detentse" - small child), -ich ("kony" - horse, "konyich" - little horse) and so on.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 3, 2007 23:10:16 GMT 3
Also, as far as I know "kuche" - dog in Russian is sobaka? Yes. intestesingly enough sobaka is indeed a word for dog in Russian and it's actually of Skytho-Sarmatian origin it's Iranic not Slavic word. Slavic word for dog is Pes. But still the Bulgarian is the language with irnaic grammar and over 2000 words, not Polish, Russian, Ukrainian etc. What similarities are there with Iranian grammar? Yes, Bulgarian is indeed to some extent different from other Slavic languages. But all these differences are explained by the fact that Bulgarian is a part of so called "Balkan languages union" which besides Bulgarian also includes Greek, Albanian, Romanian etc. Some particularities of Bulgarian grammar have paralels in these languages and are explained by the influences of pre slavic Balkanian languages substrate of Thracian, Illiric and Greek dialects which had some common features. Other than that,we should also bear in mind that Slavic languages are in fact the closest from the Western branch of IE languages to Iranic ones. There supposedly was a middle chain between Slavic and Iranic languages, represented by Toharian language, which is now extinct, unfortunately.
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Post by aca on Oct 4, 2007 9:54:59 GMT 3
I agree.
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Post by Balkhani on Oct 5, 2007 20:53:13 GMT 3
see the links I gave in my first post(I believe it was there) also, the translations of the inscriptions from Murtaflar. About "dog" in the scytho-sarmation languages Scytho-sarmatian - Kuti (dog)
From souses: Соколов С.Н. Древнеперсидский язык // Основы Иранского языкознание. Древнеиранские языки. Москва, 1979. Kanga E.M.F. A complete Dictionary of the Avesta language. Bombay , 1900. Кочергина В. А. Учебник санскрита. Москва , 1994. Историко-этимологический словарь осетинского языка : [Осетинско-русский] : В 4 т. / Василий Иванович Абаев, 21 см, Репр. воспр. М. ИВЦ "ВИКОМ" 1996.
So "sobaka" is not scytho-sarmatian. May be finno-ugric?
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Post by sarmat on Oct 5, 2007 21:43:38 GMT 3
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Post by Balkhani on Oct 5, 2007 22:03:27 GMT 3
Persian and Scytho-Sarmatian are not the same things. Nor is Median. In pashto it's Kuch, checked it myself in the dictionary.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 6, 2007 4:48:15 GMT 3
Skytho-Sarmatian, Median and Persian all are Iranic languages closely related akin to the modern Turkic or Slavic languages. This only natural that this word could be common for all of these languages. In any case the source clearly stated that Median/Iranic Spaka is NO DOUBT related to Slavic/Russian sobaka. In most of the Russian sources however it's just written that the word Sobaka is of Skythian origin. I am not an expert in Pashto language, but word spay seems to be real. This is another Pashto-English Dictionary: www.yorku.ca/twainweb/troberts/pashto/pashlex1.htmlspay dog noun m 3
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Post by Balkhani on Oct 6, 2007 14:38:31 GMT 3
I'm not saying that there are no Iranic words in Russian (I said that persian, median etc. are not scytho-sarmatian) - it's normal since there were and are iranic people on the territory of present-day Russia. There are turkic words in the Russian language too for the same reason.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 8, 2007 7:41:48 GMT 3
I'm not saying that there are no Iranic words in Russian (I said that persian, median etc. are not scytho-sarmatian) - it's normal since there were and are iranic people on the territory of present-day Russia. There are turkic words in the Russian language too for the same reason. Well, the reconstruction of Skytho-Sarmtian vocabularly by Abaev et al. is more hypothetical than 100% true. At the same time,we know for sure that the word SPAKA existed in Median language and it also most likely existed in Skythian language as well. A good analogy are similarities between modern Turkic or Slavic languages which have very similar vocabularly despite all the classifications into North-Southern, Western-Eastern etc. I also would be happy to refer you to the Russian language sources which call the word sobaka just Skythian if you like.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 10, 2007 0:39:29 GMT 3
A Jacobit book written in Syria in 569 calles the Bulġars "Turks"
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Post by sarmat on Oct 10, 2007 0:59:55 GMT 3
Bulgars also had a calendar similar to ancient Turk and Mongolian calendar with some similarities with Chinese calendar. This only can be expalained by the fact that they came to Eastern Europe with Xiongnu
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Post by Balkhani on Oct 10, 2007 1:22:29 GMT 3
Tigin, if you post a link I will be very grateful. I'm not a fan of these characterisation,because at that times Scythian and Turk or Hun were oftengeographical terms. That's why I don't use it for evidence, because the Bulgars were called scythians numerous times. One of the few sources I'd use,in which the Bulgars are called "scythians" is this one: Mikhail the Syrian - Patriarch of Antiohia: "At those times there came from internal Skitia (Central Asia) three brothers,who lead with them 30 000 Skitians, and took the road of 60 days from the gorges of Imeon (Pamir and Hindukush) to the river Tanais (the Don),which flows into the lake of Meotida. Those people were named by the Romans Bulgars."
Sarmat, the Bulgarian calendar is similar to the Chinese and mongolian ones for one thing - it has 12 years which are named after animals. The differences are that it has two parts - one for 12 years and another for one year. The one for one year had 12 months, all of them making a year of 360 days, and 5 unholy which are not written together with the holy ones. Same as the Saka calendar - 360 holy days and 5 unholy. The Bulgarian calendar has different animals from the chinese,mongolian,turkic etc., is solar(not lunar as the turkic) and is older than the Chinese.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 10, 2007 5:40:07 GMT 3
There is a big confusion about the using of name "Skythians" in many chronicles.
For example Rus army that invaded Bulgaria and fought with Byzantinnes there in 9 century AD was called Skythian by a Byzantinne historian.
Rus Prince Sviatoslav is simply called "the chairman of Skythians."
Pechenegs, Kumans and other Turkic tribes are also often called Skythians in Byzantinne chronicles.
Bulgarian calendar is analogous to Turk and Chinese LUNAR calendar.
I have a source for that.
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