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Post by Temüjin on Oct 30, 2006 0:52:41 GMT 3
at the moment I read an excellent book about one of my new heros, that is Nadir Shah. after reading half of the book i found out new stuff about him that i didn't knew before (actually i knew almost nothing about him before reading the book), such as he modelled himself on Timur and Chinggis Khaan and introduced some words of central asian origin, for example his camp guard (that had also day and night shift like that of Chinggis Khaan) was called Keshikchi, the commander of those was called Keshikchi-Bashi. the general assembly that made Nadir Shah of Iran was called Quriltai and was held in the Moghan, the Azerbaijanian Steppe. like Timur he constructed towers of skulls, considdered himself the wrath of god and plundering Delhi. His grandsons were called Shahrukh and Jengiz in memory of Timurs son and sucessor and Chinggis Khaan, he also styled himself Sahibkiran like Timur did. if you have more questions i will try to answer them.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 30, 2006 1:16:12 GMT 3
He is not very favorite in Turkey because of his wars with the Ottoman Empire, which are themselves interesting to read. Sometimes he was defeated by the Ottomans (such as his attack on Baghdâd) whereas sometimes he defeated them (like how he defeated and killed Topal 'Osmân Pasha).
I also do not like the way modern Persian Iranians try to claim him as a Persian-Iranian hero. I do not believe that he did his wars for "Iran - he did them for himself. He was also a Turk by blood and culture.
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Post by Temüjin on Oct 30, 2006 2:18:41 GMT 3
he was only defeated once in battle ever, by Topal Osman Pasha, but in the next battle he defeated him and and he was killed. in all other battles he defeated the Ottomans.
it is difficult to attribute him to any modern country, but Iranians have more of a claim on him than any other nation, after all he was from Khorasan and Khorasan is part of modern Iran. also he was Shah-in-Shah of Iran and most of his wars were fought to liberate or extend Iran. of course he did this all for himself and not for the Iranian nation (otherwise he would not have deposed the Safavids and removed the court from Isfahan), in fact it was obvious he only cared for his army and put the Iranians under heavy taxation. his army was also very heterogenous, consisting of Afshar Turkmens, Qajar Turkmens, Qarachorlu Kurds (all three from Khorasan), Steppe Turkmens and Abdali Afghans. his infantry was Iranian. there is also no single indication that he considdered himself more Turkmen than Iranian, in fact in a dispute over booty were some of his own Afshar soldiers unjustly claimed booty that rightfully belonged to some Qarachorlu Kurdish soldiers who were enemies of Nadir in his early years, he investigated the case and gave the booty to the Kurds and had the commanders of those Afshars executed. this also showed his well-known reputation for justice.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 31, 2006 0:37:52 GMT 3
I see, thank you
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Post by Temüjin on Oct 31, 2006 1:25:40 GMT 3
no problem dear Qaghan
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Post by nisse on May 30, 2007 3:47:46 GMT 3
He wasnt from khorasan, khorasan ends at bojnurd, he was from southern turkmenistan which now laies in north east Iran, the turkmens have been livining there since the seljuks time, I will shop in map , en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmen_Sahraits halv the size bigger than the map, he was born in golestan region of Iran which name is actually turkmen sahra the turkmens live to the bojnurd ,everything of the east of bojnurd is khorasan
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Post by nisse on May 30, 2007 3:50:48 GMT 3
the things he did wasnt for Iran , it was for himself and his close companiens
He is actually dislike by the turkmen , because he wanted to taxate the turkmens and they refused to pay, he got mad and sent an army ,
Still that doesnt make him, less turkmen for that, what he did was for himself , sin sons and companiens
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Post by nisse on May 30, 2007 3:58:29 GMT 3
he looks like a typical turkmen
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Post by Temüjin on May 30, 2007 21:49:03 GMT 3
thats not correct, Nadir was born near Mashad, still within the borders of Khorasan and Iran. he also was not Turkmen but Afshar which is to my knowledge part of the Azeri Turkish. during the Safavid dynasty, many warlike tribes from wetsern Iran, like Afshars and Kurds were re-settled in Khorasan for border protection against Turkmen raids. the region you pointed out is inhabitted by Qajars and Nadir is 100% not Qajar...
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Post by nisse on May 30, 2007 23:16:42 GMT 3
there are persians living within the turkmen sahra that doesnt make them turkmen, they are still persians
as is the case with nadir, we maybe was born near mashad but that doesnt make him persian, the explaniation that he was born there maybe due to the fact that he is of nomad origin , nomads move and dont have any settlements, the turkmens maybe where there for the moment then he was born
Afshar is a old oghuz turkish tribe, there ar afshars living in northern turkmen sahra to, afshar is not rescticted to the azeris
he doesnt look like azeri at all, he looks like a typical turkmen
where do you have the fact for that,
the kurds came to the region then first mohammed pahlavi the last motherf**king king of Iran moved them from kurdistan to near turkmensahra
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 31, 2007 0:03:08 GMT 3
But historicially, at least in the Medieval period, modern Turkmenistan was considered a part of Khorâsân.
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Post by Temüjin on May 31, 2007 0:23:16 GMT 3
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Post by nisse on May 31, 2007 1:50:36 GMT 3
it was the uzbegs that caputerud him , and not turkmen
if he wasnt turkmen , what was he then, he is defeintly not persian, not azeri either,
he got help from the turkmen then he rose in power, all the turkmens wasnt agaisnt him, you said yourself that he got help form the afshar turkmens and qajar turkmens,
it actually a common thing among turkmens to sieze up with different factions, that why we turkmens havent had a state since djingiz khans time, except turkmenistan, even in qajar where turkmen, they forgatt that they where turkmen at least the ones that are living now
all the turkmens wasnt against him, but some tribes where , others got support from him and they supported him back , you said it yourself, are you contredicting what you have been saying yourself
its a persian propaganda to claim him that he is not turkmen,
actually the persians have done many bad things to the turkmens in Iran to suppress their right the last 75 years and not ackknoelgde theier culture and history in Iran,
even the qajar have been said that they are persian by some persian historians claiming that they mixed with persian and then became persians themself
thats bull s_h_i_t
it seems that you have been fallen for the persian ultra nationalistic propaganda
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 31, 2007 17:51:07 GMT 3
Of course he hasn't. Today, in Iran, the Afshars and Qachars, as well as the Azeris are considered as separate peoples from the Türkmäns; but in fact, they were and are all Türkmäns. However, the Azeris and Qachars (Qajars) are speaking a dialect which is slightly different from the Türkmän dialect. Just like Anatolian Turkish. But they were and are all Oghuz
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Post by nisse on May 31, 2007 18:28:57 GMT 3
the qajar where from southern turkmenistan, or turkmensahra
they where not azeri's
there is today a tribe called qajar in turkmensahra , they came from there and not from azerbaijan
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