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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 18, 2006 21:30:55 GMT 3
I am not very sure of this but I think some Chinese words might be of Altaic (Turko-Mongol) origin. I will give you two examples:
- Tiān (T'ien) 天: This character has two meanings: Sky and God. In Old Turkic and Mongolian, the word Teñri/Tengri had also had the same meanings. Besides, the earlier pronounciation of Tiān 天 was Ten/Tan as it passed to Japanese as Ten and in the Turkic inscriptions, the Chinese title Tiānzĭ (T'ien-tzu) 天子 is transcripted into Old Turkic as Tinsi. Tiān/Ten 天 looks very familiar to the root part of Turko-Mongol Teñri. Plus, if I remember correctly, the Sky Cult was introduced into China during the Zhōu (Chou) 周 Dynasty, which migrated into Central China from the northwest, making a clue that the founders of this dynasty might have had cultural relationships with the Altaic nomads of the steppes. The similarity between the shapes of the words and both words having the exactly same meaning made me think that Chinese Tiān 天 might be of Altaic origin (note that I am not sure; mine is just a suggestion).
- Tiĕ (T'ie) 鐵: (Simplified character 铁) This character meaning "Iron" in Chinese looks familiar with the Turko-Mongol word with the same meaning. This word, however, has many forms in various Turkic and Mongolic dialects, including Temür, Teymür, Temir and Demir. Is it possible that iron was introduced into China by Altaic nomads or by a group of people influenced by them? Is it possible that this Chinese word might be of Altaic origin?
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Post by Atabeg on Aug 18, 2006 22:07:48 GMT 3
if Tie means Iron could tiele mean of Iron or strong turk means strong or ad the higest level. btw mabey an unrelated matehr those who know the cartoon dragonball and dragonball z(japnese cartoon) know the charecter name tien the 3 eyed monk. his full name is Tienshinhan the words tien and han are both altaic words right? it just poped up in my head  |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 18, 2006 22:21:21 GMT 3
if Tie means Iron could tiele mean of Iron or strong turk means strong or ad the higest level. No, Tiĕlè (T'ieh-le) 鐵勒 is just a transcription of a Turkic name, probably of Tegreg/Tägräg (meaning "wheel"). However, this Tiĕlè 鐵勒 = Tegreg/Tägräg theory hasn't been accepted by all scholars yet. btw mabey an unrelated matehr those who know the cartoon dragonball and dragonball z(japnese cartoon) know the charecter name tien the 3 eyed monk. his full name is Tienshinhan the words tien and han are both altaic words right? Depends on which Chinese characters they are written with. There are 25 different Tian and 25 different Han characters in Chinese (according to this Chinese Character Dictionary). The Chinese transcription character for Turko-Mongol Qan/Khan is Hàn 汗. It's original meaning is "perspiration; sweat" but the useage of the transcription of Qan/Khan does not have that meaning since it is a transcription way, not transliteration. |
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Post by Bor Chono on Aug 19, 2006 14:17:44 GMT 3
Hard, I mean Pro-topic!  In Mongolian lang : "Here" is "En-d" "There" is "Ten-d" "Ten" means something WIDE, FAR, UPPER. "Ten-gis"="Sea" "Ten deer"(used in speaking) ="on the","up" "Ten-ger"=almost like "Upper home" or "Upper world" ="Sky".  |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 19, 2006 18:00:33 GMT 3
Hmm but Tenggis (Teñgis) in Mongolian comes from the Old Turkic word Teñiz.
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Post by Temüjin on Aug 23, 2006 21:36:33 GMT 3
the Chinese word paizi ”vŽq for sign or trademark is 100% copy of the Mongolian paiza stamp that couriers used for identification & legitimation of their messages.
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Post by tengrikut on Aug 24, 2006 9:53:29 GMT 3
where is nomad? he knows chineese he can add more examples.
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Post by Bor Chono on Aug 24, 2006 13:31:44 GMT 3
where is nomad? he knows chineese he can add more examples. Yeah! ;D |
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Post by qrasy on Aug 25, 2006 13:26:37 GMT 3
- Tiān (T'ien) 天: This character has two meanings: Sky and God. In Old Turkic and Mongolian, the word Teñri/Tengri had also had the same meanings. Why not the reverse direction? And is the 't' here in Mongolian aspirated or not? I doubt this connection because the Classical Chinese word for this had a -t ending, which is clearly inherited to -t in Cantonese and -tsu in Japanese but lost perfectly in Beijing Mandarin. Sometimes the '-t' is used to transcribe things like '-l' or '-r'. the Chinese word paizi ”vŽq for sign or trademark is 100% copy of the Mongolian paiza stamp that couriers used for identification & legitimation of their messages. The second syllable 'zi' as in Beijing Mandarin (which would mean "child" if its characters are seen) often looks like just a dummy to complete a word. Like 'zhuozi' table, where actually 'zhuo' already has such a meaning. 'Pai' in 'paizi' already has a meaning. Is that also the case in Mongolian?? |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 25, 2006 19:48:14 GMT 3
I got to check Edwin Pulleyblank's book on the reconstruction of old pronounciations for Chinese characters. I ordered the book from Amazon.com some weeks ago and it will come in two weeks or so. By the way, welcome to SHF!  |
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Post by horka on Sept 4, 2006 18:39:30 GMT 3
Hard, I mean Pro-topic! In Mongolian lang : "Here" is "En-d" "There" is "Ten-d" "Ten" means something WIDE, FAR, UPPER. "Ten-gis"="Sea" "Ten deer"(used in speaking) ="on the","up" "Ten-ger"=almost like "Upper home" or "Upper world" ="Sky". Interesting. Tenger is sea in Hungarian. ég is sky menny is heaven itt is here ott is there tág is wide the affix -on/en/ön means on a tengeren means on the sea |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 4, 2006 20:20:35 GMT 3
I was correct: In Early Middle Chinese (Sui Dynasty Period), Ti¨¡n Ìì was pronounced Ten according to Pulleyblank |
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Post by asiaticus on Sept 19, 2006 22:56:31 GMT 3
"- Tiĕ (T'ie) èF: (Simplified character Ìú) This character meaning "Iron" in Chinese looks familiar with the Turko-Mongol word with the same meaning. This word, however, has many forms in various Turkic and Mongolic dialects, including Temür, Teymür, Temir and Demir. Is it possible that iron was introduced into China by Altaic nomads or by a group of people influenced by them? Is it possible that this Chinese word might be of Altaic origin? "
No. Chinese Tie "Iron" in Sui-Tang period had a final in -t, not in -m. (cfr Pulleyblank, p. 308: * thet ) .
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 20, 2006 12:12:27 GMT 3
Yes, you are right, I checked that too. But I think there might be a connection in the first part, Te-. Or am I wrong?
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Post by aca on Sept 20, 2006 19:34:50 GMT 3
"- Tiĕ (T'ie) èF: (Simplified character Ìú) This character meaning "Iron" in Chinese looks familiar with the Turko-Mongol word with the same meaning. This word, however, has many forms in various Turkic and Mongolic dialects, including Temür, Teymür, Temir and Demir. Is it possible that iron was introduced into China by Altaic nomads or by a group of people influenced by them? Is it possible that this Chinese word might be of Altaic origin? " No. Chinese Tie "Iron" in Sui-Tang period had a final in -t, not in -m. (cfr Pulleyblank, p. 308: * thet ) . Right. Besides it is highly unlikely that the nomads from the steppe introduced iron into China. I can't find any reasonable explanation why should an ages old civilization need barbarians to introduce iron to it. More likely is that it was the other way around. But I can't make any other comment on this. |
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