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Post by hjernespiser on Feb 21, 2009 9:06:36 GMT 3
Felt applique griffin from a Scythian kurgan in Pazyryk, Altai
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Post by laudatortemporisac on Feb 21, 2009 12:15:19 GMT 3
Felt applique griffin from a Scythian kurgan in Pazyryk, Altai I don't see well Griffin has a snake head tail? It has a sign on it's leg. May be this picture represents constellations which relates the mediterranian zodiac?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 22, 2009 0:48:12 GMT 3
I strongly disagree with the view that the Pazyryk burials belong to the Scythians.
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Post by laudatortemporisac on Feb 22, 2009 4:00:11 GMT 3
I strongly disagree with the view that the Pazyryk burials belong to the Scythians. Why? To clarify: the Coat of Arms of Altay Republic is a modern era symbol as the Altay Republic was created in the modern era. The coat of arms refers to findings of XX. c. excavations, people who lives there has nothing common with it. Or situation is something else?
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Post by hjernespiser on Feb 22, 2009 7:12:17 GMT 3
I strongly disagree with the view that the Pazyryk burials belong to the Scythians. Why is that?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 22, 2009 14:48:28 GMT 3
Why do you think it's "Scythian" (the term itself is wrong, because Scythian is the name used for Saka living in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, but anyway) at all? What makes you think so? I think the finds are more related with other Southern Siberian cultures like Tagar, Taštïq, Qarasuq, etc rather with the western Saka.
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Post by laudatortemporisac on Feb 22, 2009 15:34:10 GMT 3
Why do you think it's "Scythian" (the term itself is wrong, because Scythian is the name used for Saka living in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, but anyway) at all? What makes you think so? I think the finds are more related with other Southern Siberian cultures like Tagar, Taštïq, Qarasuq, etc rather with the western Saka. This cultures was Scythian too, or I'm wrong? hjernespiser did not say that Pazyryk was Saka. So, this findings shows Mesopotamian or Iranian influences. I think this influences reached the western Scythians too.
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Feb 22, 2009 19:19:46 GMT 3
It is not said that Pazyryk culture is Saka but it is very similar to culture of the Saka people and most probably could be part of it according to archaelogical finds. I never heard of its relation with southern Siberian cultures like Qaraluq. The influence - which I call similarity of its art with other east Iranian art- is because of some of the rug findings which are presumed to havr made in eastern parts of Achaemenian empire along with the some pictures of women wearing costume identical to those of Achaemenian period, for which I think it is no surprise as the study of the clothing of the Iranian people of that time already shows this great resemblance.
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Post by laudatortemporisac on Feb 23, 2009 0:42:13 GMT 3
It is not said that Pazyryk culture is Saka but it is very similar to culture of the Saka people and most probably could be part of it according to archaelogical finds. I never heard of its relation with southern Siberian cultures like Qaraluq. The influence - which I call similarity of its art with other east Iranian art- is because of some of the rug findings which are presumed to havr made in eastern parts of Achaemenian empire along with the some pictures of women wearing costume identical to those of Achaemenian period, for which I think it is no surprise as the study of the clothing of the Iranian people of that time already shows this great resemblance. Should be known the meanings of the Coat of arms of Altay Republic, or the picture posted by hjernespiser?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 23, 2009 1:01:17 GMT 3
No, they were Turkic. She said Scythian I would like to know what exactly was Iranian in the artworks found at Pazyryk. To me, they look very steppe-made, not Iranian (by Iranian, I mean sedentary Iranians like Akhaemenids). Oh btw, the Scythians never went to the area of Pazyryk. The reason why I say Pazyryk might be related with Tagar, Taštïq, Qarasuq, etc was because it's located very close to these cultural centers.
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Feb 23, 2009 2:23:41 GMT 3
Yes I know what you are saying Ihsan, but there two things; one of them the term 'Iranian' as you surely know, in archaeology and linguistics encompasses the term you suggested 'Iranic'. The other thing is that Iranians in Iranian plateau or steppes weren't quite successful to forget their original ways of life specially horsemanship and become completely sedentary people, good examples of this are early Iranian kigdoms established in western Iran like Media and Achaemenid Empire, having modelled some superficial aspects of their state after Elamites and Mesopotamian states, they seemed horse people and not quite sedentary to others. Iranian pastoralist nomads that are still living in Iran and Asia show that this tradition of life never quitely abandoned by Iranians. Not to forget that then time eastern Iran of Achaemenian era - which itself encircled some parts of steppe- was still the core of westhingyd moving Iranians so this cultural tie was held for many centureis within Iranian world.
Pazyryk is a culture that shows early interactions of europoid people with some mongoloid elements. Scythians if taken inhabitants of Pontic steppe of course never went to that region but the culture of the Pazyryk for example in terms of art which is known as Scythian Art is similar even to that of Scythians of Pontic steppe. And again some Pazyryk rugs are believed to have been made in eastern part of Achaemenid Empire, on one of which there is an embelm of five dames which are similarly dressed to those Achaemenid royals.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 23, 2009 3:14:34 GMT 3
But are all artifacts found at Pazyryk belong to Iranic culture? Or only some? If it's the latter, maybe they got there via trade, right? I mean, there are many Greek artifacts found in Scythian tombs in Ukraine, but this doesn't mean the Scythians were Greek.
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Post by hjernespiser on Feb 23, 2009 7:04:57 GMT 3
I apologize for using the word Scythian when I meant really the eastern Saka. I was using the word more as a lose term for peoples with a shared culture. Honestly, I'm not familiar with Tagar, Taštïq, or Qarasuq cultures. Most of what I've read says the stuff found in Pazyryk kurgans are an eastern extension of the Saka culture and I've never seen that disputed. Some of what Herodotus wrote about the Scythians was accurate for Pazyryk culture. Further east from Pazyryk is the "Scythian" burial in Tuva, Arzhan-2.
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Post by hjernespiser on Feb 23, 2009 7:06:17 GMT 3
But are all artifacts found at Pazyryk belong to Iranic culture? Or only some? If it's the latter, maybe they got there via trade, right? I mean, there are many Greek artifacts found in Scythian tombs in Ukraine, but this doesn't mean the Scythians were Greek. I think it's all artifacts. Or at least, the Pazyryk people sure liked Scythian art enough to tattoo themselves with it.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 23, 2009 15:40:48 GMT 3
I see, thanks. Well I am rather weak at CA pre-history, but you know, in Turkey it has always been thought that Pazyryk was Turkic rather than Iranic, and both Bahaeddin Ögel and Nejat Diyarbekirli assocciate Pazyryk with the Asian Huns. But I had also disputed that connection, because the Huns did not live in the region at that time (they were in Ordos, moved northwards much later and never settled in the Northern Altais, rather stayed in Mongolia), so I thought Pazyryk might be related with the local Turkic cultures of the region, rather than with the Huns or Saka. Of course this is open to debate and I am not that good in CA history before the Asian Huns Just my two cents
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