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Post by arslan on Sept 10, 2007 21:43:00 GMT 3
Cumans (Western Kyphcaks) are believed to be totally destroyed by Mongols in 13 century. At the same time the army of Batu-khan is believed to formed from 60% up to 70% from Kyphcaks living Central Asia, mainly in the Modern Kazakhstan.
I was always wondering, what really happened to Cumans. Where they indeed totally exterminated and eastern Kypchak just replaced them in the Western Steppe or it was more like a political subjugation to the Eastern Kypchak tribes under Mongol domination?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 10, 2007 23:14:51 GMT 3
When Batu came with his army and crushed the Qypchaqs, a large number of Qypchaqs fled to Volga Bulgaria, Hungary, Caucasia and Northern Anatolia, while the remnants, who were also big in number, became the subjects and main manpower supplier people of the Golden Horde, initially Turkifying the state itself. Those who fled to Volga Bulgaria mixed with the natives, creating the Kazan Tatars (now Tataristan), who adopted the dialect of the newcomers, whereas those Volga Bulghars who did not mix with the Qypchaqs kept their original identity and became the Chuvash people. The Qypchaqs in Hungary later just faded away. Those who settled in Northern Anatolia mixed with the Türkmens and became assimiliated among them but some of their lingual heritage survives in the local accents there. The ones in Caucasia Qypchaqifed the local Turkic peoples like the Qarachay and Balqars (Malqars), whereas those to the south got mixed with the Oghuz and formed the Akhysqa (Meskhet) Turks. The Qypchaq subjects of the Golden Horde were called Tatars because they adopted the name of their rulers, the Tatars (common name for the Mongols at that time), just like how the Thraco-Slavs adopted the name of their Bulghar Turkic rulers in Moesia, or just like how the Romanized Gaulish Celts adopted the name of their Germanic Frankish rulers. After the break-up of the Golden Horde, there were several Tatars khanates like Qyrym (Crimea), Qazan (Kazan'), Astrakhan (As Tarkhan?), Noghay (Nogai) and Sibir. The common people of these khanates were composed of Qypchaqs or the natives who mixed and got assimiliated into them. By the way, some large groups of Qypchaqs moved eastwards into Qazaqstan and Uzbekistan, forming the Qazaq and Uzbek peoples after accepting other Turkic, Mongolic and Iranic peoples among themselves. Today, the Qypchaq Group form the second biggest among the Turkic dialects: Note: there are still some small communities of Qypchaq-Tatars living in the Baltics, majorly in Lithuania, who came there either as the bodyguards of the Lithuanian Grand Dukes, or as mercenaries.
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Post by arslan on Sept 11, 2007 1:10:51 GMT 3
Thank you for your such a detailed and informative post.
It still however not that clear to me what happened. I am Volga Tatar by myself.
I don't think Cumans fled to Volga Bulgaria. As I wrote earlier Batu's army which invaded Eastern Europe consisted mainly of Kypchaks from Central Asia. They had struck Volga Bulgaria first later they struck Rus and Cumans, Cumans were defeated and most of them fled more furhter to the west, mainly to Hungary, Bulgaria and Buzantine empire. The way back to the East and North East where Volga Bulgaria was, was blocked by Mongols.
The former Voga Bulgar state which was totally destroyed was inhabitted by new coming Central Asian Kypchaks. Central Asian Kypchaks also finished Turkisation of Bashkirs who initially were Finno-Ugrian speaking nomades (culture of Bashkirs by the way shows many similarities with the culture of Central Asian Karakalpaks).
At least that was my understanding. Do you think that Kypchaks which later inhabitted Volga Bulgar state were Cumans?
I believe they were mainly Central Asian Kypchaks.
As far as I know Polish and Lithuanian Tatars originate from Crimean Khanate, not from Cumans. However in Hungary there is a whole region inhabitted by the descendants of Cumans.
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Post by tengrikut on Sept 11, 2007 12:35:23 GMT 3
cumans are now in gagauzia, they are one of three major tribes built gagauzians
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 11, 2007 17:49:23 GMT 3
Do you think that Kypchaks which later inhabitted Volga Bulgar state were Cumans? Kuman & Qipchak is the same... Tribes of the Lithuanian Tatars are different from those of the Crimean Tatars.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 11, 2007 23:27:47 GMT 3
Some groups of Qïpchaqs migrated to the lands of Volga Bulgaria, this is a prooven fact. In every work about the Mongol Invasion of Eastern Europe, you can find info on this. Plus, Qïpchaq and Cuman are the same people. There was a people living in the Qazaq Steppe called Qaŋlï which was a branch of the Qïpchaqs.
Even though they suffered heavy casualties and a great number of them fled away, most of the Qïpchaqs remained in their homeland and became the number one subject people of the Golden Horde.
In fact, the Bulghar Khanate was not completely destroyed until the 1280s. It's capital and most of it's towns were sacked at 1238 but they were re-built. It was at this time when some Qïpchaqs came from the southern states and started mixing with the Bulghars, forming the Qazan Tatars.
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Post by Asparuh on Mar 5, 2009 0:41:53 GMT 3
I respect the Cumans.They were good soldiers and exelent horse archers.They also helped Bulgaria in several campaigns against Vyzantium,but the Cuman leader Manaster killled our king Kaloyan while he was asleep in his tent at the military camp preparing the conquer of Constantinople.This is what i don't like in particular in steppe nations like Cumans or Pechenegs.They could easily turned against the one who hired them. I also heard that they dissapeared. I'm impressed by your knowledge of Volga Bulgaria Ihsan ! Bravo ! Volga Bulgaria gave the stiffest resistance to the Mongol empire of Batu Khan ever ! It was a beautiful and rich country at its time.
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Post by laudatortemporisac on Mar 5, 2009 2:15:32 GMT 3
Some of Kumans settled in Hungary, most of them in Jász Nagykun Szolnok megye(Jazig BigCuman Szolnok County) an Bács Kiskun megye(Bács Little Kuman County)
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 5, 2009 4:14:53 GMT 3
Thanks
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Post by tadamson on Mar 9, 2009 19:40:55 GMT 3
As an additional piece of information, quite large numbers of Qipchaqs were transferred to Manchuria by the Mongols to settle empty ex-Jurchen lands. Some 50,000 or so acted as elite troops for Qubilai in his wars against Quaidu.
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 9, 2009 20:18:43 GMT 3
Kubilais Guard were Alans, not Qypchaq.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 9, 2009 22:03:31 GMT 3
Actually, besides Alans Kubilai forces did include a large number of Kypchak warrirors and even Russians. There was a Russian military settlement discovered in the modern Beijing area.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 9, 2009 22:19:42 GMT 3
Yuan dinasty chronicle says that in 1334 AD the famous Mongolian general Bayan was appointed the commander of the great Khan's guard that consisted of 3 regiments of Mongols, Kypchaks and Russians.
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Post by arnewise12 on Mar 9, 2009 22:21:05 GMT 3
very interesting info, thanks
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 9, 2009 22:53:33 GMT 3
Yuan dinasty chronicle says that in 1334 AD the famous Mongolian general Bayan was appointed the commander of the great Khan's guard that consisted of 3 regiments of Mongols, Kypchaks and Russians. what exactly do you mean with regiments? a Minghan?
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