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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2007 2:20:18 GMT 3
It's not just the heritage of the USSR. It's the result of the cultural imperialist policies of that evil state, which, claiming to be "universal" and "socialist", did nothing except implying Russian fascism.
I don't care if people learn Russian or not. But it's a shame when Turks speak with each other in Russian.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 2:20:53 GMT 3
i was never in Russia but i know about their past and i know about the present from Volga Germans who left your paradise country where everyone loves the leadership... Please kindly tell me what they say? But as far as I know, Volga Germans have been living mostly in Kazakhstan for the last 50 years.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 2:22:16 GMT 3
Aren't you ashamed of speaking English? What language should they use if they don't understand each other?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2007 2:25:22 GMT 3
Any of the Turkic dialects. I'm also ashamed when Turks speak in English or some other non-Turkic language.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 2:30:16 GMT 3
I see, but language is just a tool. If we wouldn't spoke English, how for example you could exchange ideas with Temujin, who is from Germany.
And unfortunately, not all the Turkic dialects are mutually intelligible. What language should Turks speak among themselves in your opinion? If you would suggest one Turkic dialect others wouldn't like it. You should either invent a new universal Turk language or use smth more neutral like English or Russian.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2007 2:34:55 GMT 3
I see, but language is just a tool. It's not just a tool, it's a key pillar of cultural identity. If we wouldn't spoke English, how for example you could exchange ideas with Temujin, who is from Germany. Temüjin is not Turkic And unfortunately, not all the Turkic dialects are mutually intelligible. What language should Turks speak among themselves in your opinion? Depends from dialect to dialect. It would be normal for, for example, Sakhas and Anatolian Turks to talk in some other non-Turkic languages if they don't know their dialect, but the differences between for example Qazaq and Uzbek or Qyrghyz and Turkmen are not that big for them to speak between themselves in Russian or English. I believe that there should be a common dialect for all or at least most of the Turkic dialects. For example, Chaghatay was the common written language of Central Asia and Southern Russia before 1925, while Ottoman was the common written language of the Turkics in the Middle East, Caucasia and the Balkans.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 2:41:06 GMT 3
I see what you mean. But, unfortunately, It would be too hard to recreate such a common language now. A lot of work has to be done.
But it's the problem of Turks who want to speak Russian among themselves. It simply looks like they don't really think it's important, that's why they do it. But Russia can't make Uzbek and Kazakh to speak Russian now, anyway. They can do whatever they want. They are simply too lazy to change everything now. But for sure it'll change very soon.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 2:41:45 GMT 3
Please kindly tell me what they say? But as far as I know, Volga Germans have been living mostly in Kazakhstan for the last 50 years. yes, most of them are from Kazakhstan, but regions were mostly Russians and Ukrianians lived. some are from the Ob River region beyond the Ural. one i know especially well is from Kyrgysistan. most of them say the same thing, they were bullied by Russians because they were not ethnically Russian. they also told me this happened in the army, not only to ethnic Germans but also other non-Russian nationalities, Ukrainians, Armenians and so on, thats why they usually sticked together. thats why many started to deny their German origin and heritage. from experience none of them could speak German when they came here. the one from Kyrgysistan however was taught German by his grandparents but it was of course the ancient German they spoke whent hey left Germany 200 years ago which is different from modern German.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 2:54:28 GMT 3
Well. Army is the place famous for bullying etc. everywhere even in Europe and US. I have a German friend who came to Russia to perform his civil service here instead of serving in the German army. Nobody bullied him, even despite he didn't speak any Russian in the beginning at all. If you read Russian mass media a lot of Russians in the army are actually complaining that they are dominated and bullied by Muslims who are always more organised than Russians. Russian army is a very special place, very disgusting in its current condition.
However in the Soviet Union, Germans where usually respected. And from the apperance language etc. they were totally not distinguishable from Russians.
But if you talk about the Russian empire. Volga Germans had complete autonomy there, some people even didn't speak any Russian at all in the german settlements.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 3:02:59 GMT 3
However in the Soviet Union, Germans where usually respected. And from the apperance language etc. they were totally not distinguishable from Russians. haha, thats the biggest joke ever, that shows you're a Commie. of course at first Germans had a lot of privileges and even didn't had to serve in the Russian Army, but especially in the SU this all changed. yes, initially they had their Volga German SSR, but ww2 changed all that. they were deported to Gulags and Kazakhstan were they used to live and no one respected them, and they were forbidden to speak their own language so of course they were indistinguishable from Russians. come on, do you believe that yourself? btw, check some of my previous posts in this thread, i guess you missed some of my edits.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 3:26:00 GMT 3
However in the Soviet Union, Germans where usually respected. And from the apperance language etc. they were totally not distinguishable from Russians. haha, thats the biggest joke ever, that shows you're a Commie. of course at first Germans had a lot of privileges and even didn't had to serve in the Russian Army, but especially in the SU this all changed. yes, initially they had their Volga German SSR, but ww2 changed all that. they were deported to Gulags and Kazakhstan were they used to live and no one respected them, and they were forbidden to speak their own language so of course they were indistinguishable from Russians. come on, do you believe that yourself? btw, check some of my previous posts in this thread, i guess you missed some of my edits. Should I call you a Nazi ?! I tell you from my own experience, I didn't live in the 30th anf 40th when Volga Germans were deported! I can tell you that in the 80t 90th when I met them, It was impossible to distinguish. at least for me. But what I'm talking about is nowdays. And people usually where of good opinion about them. In any case, you are talking about the Stalinist repressions, which goes back to my previous point. So, should Germans remember for the rest of their existence, that they were deported by Stalin? Should Russians remember that Hitler wanted to exterminate them? Should they? Or may be we, Tatars, should never forget thar Ivan the terrible sacked Kazan? Huh? What's the point of it? Going in circles of hate and bad historic memories? My point is simple. Russia now is not a stalinist state, nor an empire. People more or less live in peace with each other (not without exceptions of course). So, I don't see the reasons why should I make it worse, by saying look! U did this bad to my people! I hate you! You Russian Bolshevist-Imberilialist blah-blah-blah, Then the Russian would say, no, you began first, look at the Mongol-Tatar invsion etc, blood thirsty barbarians etc.. The same thing with Germans. My point is simple instead of hate people should respect each other. As I told you Russians and Tatars usually get toghether quite well in modern Russia. And Turks everywhere should promote peace and cooperation between each other and other nations. The point is simple.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 5:13:23 GMT 3
with all respect, but reading your posts i get the impression your grandfather was brainwashed in Gulag and he welcomed war a lot. otherwise they wouldn't have given him command over a unit, he must have become a true Communist. any real soldiers wouldn't call war heroic. seeing as you are familiar with English and have internet you hardly come from the rural area but i suspect you live in a major Russian city and most of your friends are Russians and you have no connection with "real" Turks from the rural areas, where the actual Turks live. I repeat to you again, my grandfather was a mullah. After the war he went back to his village in Tatarstan and continued to be a mullah there (and I visit him there quite often BTW). He was given the command not because of his ideological attitudes, but because of his skills. I didn't tell you what my grandfather tells about the war in detail. In fact he even doesn't like to talk about it much. He is just proud to be a victor. And most of the Russian WWII veterans are proud of that. This is true by the way about the veterans in all the former USSR republics. I think your impression about the Red Army is quite disturbed. In fact Stalin abolished all the exageratted propaganda stuff after the initial defeats. The war was the time when Stalin allowed people to practice their religion openly etc. Because he understood that people needed smth. more than just stupid communist brainwash. Red army had many Turkic officers and most of them didn't have relation to the Communist party. Luckily it was the time when people were promoted for their skills not only for the ideological loyalty. I understand what you mean. But my advice to you also, is not to rely so much on the internet in order to make your view about how Turks view Russians and Russian state in Russia. Only if you go there talk to people, perhaps you'll be able to grasp the real stuff. But, I just want to tell you that many Turks in Russia are very positive about Russian people, although it might seem strange to you. And the war veterans are proud of the victory. This is not to say that they liked the war. A normal person simply can't enjoy this process. I call such people heros because they overcame the hardships which I even can't imagine.
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Sept 7, 2007 13:06:46 GMT 3
arslan the commie, I have a question to you?
Do you consider Tatars in Finnish Army in Winter War and WWII to traitors? They were also in Axis side.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 16:14:13 GMT 3
I can tell you that in the 80t 90th when I met them, It was impossible to distinguish. at least for me. because they were denied to practice their customs and language. it was YOU who came here and called fellow Turks as traitors, that also happened some 70 years ago. so it is not you to judge this. when the English occupied ireland many Irish fled to other countires like France and Spain but also Austria and even Russia, like for example O'Rourke family. they did this because they refused to accept English occupation of their country and tried to fight on in other armies and those Irishmen were called "Wild Geese". the Poles in ww2 did something very similar to this. it is idiotic to claim they were traitors because they refused to fight in the army of the country that occupied their REAL fatherland. you said people should forget about the past, i don't think so, why you come to a history forum and say we should forget about what happened? those past conflicts can't be undone, and they should not be fogotten. but i also tell you: Turks will never accept being under Russian overlordship as much as Russians accept being under Turk overlordship. those are historical facts as we can see in reality. Russians fought against the Khanates and Turks fought against Russians, that is proove enough they don't want to live together. look at Austria-Hungary who was also a big multi-ethnic state. today, even Czechs and Slovaks don't want to live in the same country! by what you say you betrayed yourself of being Russian. you might have Turkic roots but you are only a Turk on paper. Russians have shown to forget about history very fast. 70 years ago they were almost destroyed by Fascist forces, but nowadays the Russian Fascists belong to the biggest in the world. Poles told me how they were chased in the streets by Russian gangs. Russians today have great hatred for Poles.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 22:08:04 GMT 3
arslan the commie, I have a question to you? Do you consider Tatars in Finnish Army in Winter War and WWII to traitors? They were also in Axis side. No I don't. Those Tatars were born in Finnland and were fighting for their motherland. Unlike other German allies, Finnish army never went dipper to the Russian territory than it's own prewar borders. I have only respect for Finns and their wise leader Mannergeim. Finns also refused to give up their Jews and other minorities to Nazis. I have only repsect for this people. For Finnish Tatars-Finnland is the motherland, For Soviet Tatars-USSR was a motherland. Unlike the Finnish Tatars however, captures Soviet Pows were used mainly for crushing Partisans in Europe, cause they were not trusted enough by Wermacht. In fact, it's obvious that they joined Wermacht only to save their life. And please don't tell me that kind germans wanted to create independent Turkic states in the USSR. They viewed Tatars as subhumans even worse than Russians. And again Russians also were empolyed by Germans even in greater numbers than all the captured Svoiet Turks taken together.
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