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Post by Temüjin on Sept 22, 2006 23:17:24 GMT 3
i have found tribe names of Lithuanian Tatars in a book of mine abotu Polish army, the tribenames mostly resemble those of modern kazaqs, what do you think? the names are: Uyshun, Naiman, Jalair, Kongret and Bahrin. the book also mentiones the three major Crimean Tatar tribes that i never heard before: Shirin, Mansur and Bahrin.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 23, 2006 0:03:36 GMT 3
i have found tribe names of Lithuanian Tatars in a book of mine abotu Polish army, the tribenames mostly resemble those of modern kazaqs, what do you think? the names are: Uyshun, Naiman, Jalair, Kongret and Bahrin. Indeed these are found among the Qazaq tribes
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Post by arnewise12 on Feb 26, 2009 21:41:54 GMT 3
is it true that the hollywood actor Charles Bronson is of tatar origin. I read in wikipedia that his father was of tatar origin from lithuenia and his mother a lithuanian.
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Attila
Är
History Enthusiast
Posts: 48
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Post by Attila on Apr 20, 2009 13:49:11 GMT 3
is it true that the hollywood actor Charles Bronson is of tatar origin. I read in wikipedia that his father was of tatar origin from lithuenia and his mother a lithuanian. Yes, that's actually true. Charles Bronson was a great actor. Anyone seen Once Upon A Time In The West? It's a Spaghetti Western (western filmed in Italy or Spain), considered by some to be one of the greatest films of all time.
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Post by Subu'atai on Apr 30, 2009 11:48:21 GMT 3
?!?! We should make a list of ethnic steppe celebrities!
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Post by pc18t on Oct 7, 2010 8:31:25 GMT 3
This is a very interesting find. The Tatars of Lithuania and Poland lost a great deal of identity, including language and names, mostly. The research is also harder to conduct, being some names are interchangeable between Lithuanian and Polish, although the languages have very little in relation to one another, I.E. Charles Bronson = Karolis Bučinskis in Lithuanian and Casimir Businski in Polish. I have also read that under the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth later on gave Noble status to Tatar families fighting under them, but I have found little information furthering this. The Tatars of the White Horde were followers of Tokhtamysh, the Lipka Tatars can predominately trace their families to this group. At the time, The Grand Duchy of Lithuania was the ONLY European state with similar standards to that of the Mongol Khanate of Genghis Khan; in the sense it promoted Religious freedom, and and a merit system of responsibility.
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Post by Kilij Arslan on Oct 8, 2010 12:11:08 GMT 3
Casimir is Kazimierz, so he would be either Kazimierz Busiński, or Karol (=Charles) Buczyński (ń is like spanish ñ). As for Lithuania itself, well, Columns of Gediminas look like tamga a lot :] And in fact this post-Ozbeg migration to Lithuania was consisted of whole families, I can't tell really how big was number of Tatars in Vytautas' army, but they surely had to be a significant part. The first big Tatar settlements would be noted there already in 1324, and propably there have been some small migrations even before that. Tatar nobles basically had the same rights as Lithuanian and Polish, with exception of issuing a lawsuits against other nobles - that they could do only if they converted to christianity; also they were forbidden to sell the lands given to them when they attained nobility. However the latter regulation was rarely abided. Only few families sticked to farming (some of them though would become rich and important, like Glińscy - one of the most famous among them: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Glinski ; and they would trace their origins to Mamay actually), most Tatars sold their lands and enlisted as regulars to some private magnate's armies - in Lithuania (and the eastern parts of the Crown) there was always place for them in the local powers court, and Tatars would be serving to one family or another for generations (basically because on the East there was no state standing army, and these private armies was the main defence forces - let's say it was Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth specific trait ). This whole Tokhtamysh business aside, later on there were more migrations, like from Crimean Khanate, in which many Tatars would trace their family origins to Haci Giray himself, of course However, the poorer / non organised immigrants (and Tatar prisoners of war also) would oft be settled on farmlands or live in the cities, where they would become artisans of many sorts and the like. So they would lose original culture even faster than the nobility/soldiers. Mind you, POW would be forcibly christianised, even at the times of Vytautas, and it would be done by his order (and they more often settled on the emptied countryside to grow crops), you would have religious freedom in Lithuania only if you came there by your own will ;P Btw, as you see on Michael Glinski wiki page, many Coats of Arms of noble families with Tatar origin do have some tamga elements
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Post by pc18t on Oct 8, 2010 22:26:59 GMT 3
Very interesting. I know the religious freedom was more Pre-Vytautas being Lithuania was notorious for feigning Christianization. They actually had more Crusades set up on them between the Polish, The Teutonic Order, The Holy Roman Empire, and The Church itself than the Levant had set upon it. Also interesting to note the Pre-Vytautas Lithuanians were Romuva nature worshippers, and even after complete state conversion, as opposed to Gediminas and Mindaugas' throne only conversion or multiple flip flopping between Romuva and Christianity many romuva elements remained in the form of Catholicism that Lithuanians practiced for a few more centuries. I'll be sure to check out the Glinski wiki page. I got into this history through attempting to research my own Lipka Tatar ancestry. But I have very little information, false information, or nothing much to work with so this is really refreshing to be able to talk with someone who also has some knowledge on the subject. And by the way Kilij I like the Trojan logo in your sig, its very sharp.
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Post by Kilij Arslan on Oct 9, 2010 13:24:57 GMT 3
I wanted to write that you could use help from some Tatar organisations, but I see that Polonya Tatar Birligi don't even have their own website... However, you could try to contact Muslim Religious Union in Poland (mzr@mzr.pl), and through them maybe get in touch with Selim Chazbijewicz, who is a prominent figure among polish Tatars (and used to be leader of PTB). He also organised sort of a congress of Tatars of former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but unfortunately I don't remember whether it was a cyclical event and the exact name of it (and even if it was held in Poland or Lithuania; I just found a program about it by mere chance right before I had to leave appartment). If your ancestors were enlisted to under some military banner, it will be easy to track them down, as the name lists of each local enlistment are kept and used as a source of info by nowaday historians. I suppose the times of Partitions would be harder. I suppose you would find quite a number of people in Poland with some knowledge on Tatars, since we have RPG system called Dzikie Pola (Wild Fields en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Fields) that was made in large part by historian Jacek Komuda. I may not like his certain... views, and may not be impressed by his skill as a writer, but still he is a solid historian, and made a great job in portraying these times and people concerned, including Tatars. Of course RPG is a minority thing in Poland, but aside RPG there are Tatars in here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trilogy (<-source of inspiration for Komuda and Dzikie Pola RPG system) and it's obligatory at school to read whole Trilogy (though I myself never read it, because I find Sienkiewicz both boring and linguistically inept - he feigns Old Polish language very poorly, Komuda's books are waaay better). And going totally offtopic I'm a lot more into keeping the tradition of skinhead reggae and keeping the faith (hell yeah, we have some northern soul selectors here too ) than actively S.H.A.R.P., first off because I'm not much a fighter, second is because there's not much occasion for that really. Nowadays it seems boneheads have their parties, oi! skins have their punk gigs, trad skins have their (fewer and fewer) bashments, and all try to do their best to avoid each other. And over past few years trads in Poland (or maybe just in Warsaw?) grew weird. I mean mods here are all dead and gone now (at least I haven't heard of any mod club party), and trojan skinheads are uptight and see naught but skinhead reggae and (often waaay too punky for me) ska. We don't really have actual soul boys & soul girls anymore (and only couple of years ago we had Wiggan Casino Nights and stuff!), there's like one sound system in Warsaw that regularly plays old reggae/ soul/ jamaican r&b and stuff, and some stupid yougsters consider them traitors, because either a. 'soul is commercial crap' or b. 'they play music in clubs, for non-skinheads too'. Most tradskins are more like punks to me, and their strange concept of 'trueness' actually hurts the cult itself, because reggae & ska for 8 hours non stop is simply *boring*, no matter how hard you really love that music. And since these 'neophytes' and 'skinhead zealots' attend only to 'skinhead only' gigs, and after about year got bored and go back to screaming oi! and abusing beer, there's less and less trads overall, particularly older ones. It's like in UK in 70's, when there was no transition between two skinhead generations, and the result was a bunch of short cropped punks. I'm sure in smaller towns the feud between SHARP and NS is still alive, but in Warsaw it's more associated with football hools, with one club followers being more right wing, and other being 'non political'. Therefore there are two groups on each side, knowing themselves for years, and regularly bashing their noses to a pulp every weekend - for years Last time I heard about NS threatening to come to tradskins gig was years ago, I even came to that gig even for sake of being counted as cannon fodder but nothing actually happened, boneheads never showed up; then again I just don't go to all these nowaday 'skinhead only' small club gigs since I find them dull (and these 17 years old skinheads showing off and telling tales of how many national socialists they bashed last week are hilarious only first time you see them, fifth time they're dull too - or maybe I'm just too old ;D), so I might as well have wrong impression.
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Post by sarmat on Oct 9, 2010 14:56:12 GMT 3
but aside RPG there are Tatars in here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trilogy (<-source of inspiration for Komuda and Dzikie Pola RPG system) and it's obligatory at school to read whole Trilogy (though I myself never read it, because I find Sienkiewicz both boring and linguistically inept - he feigns Old Polish language very poorly, Komuda's books are waaay better). Although Sienkiewicz is one of my favorite authors and the most renown Polish author as well, "The Trilogy" is definitely not the best novel about Tatars. Most of the time they are very bad guys and in the third book, even worse, they are savage traitors who like to torture poor Polish women...
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Post by Kilij Arslan on Oct 9, 2010 18:08:28 GMT 3
but aside RPG there are Tatars in here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trilogy (<-source of inspiration for Komuda and Dzikie Pola RPG system) and it's obligatory at school to read whole Trilogy (though I myself never read it, because I find Sienkiewicz both boring and linguistically inept - he feigns Old Polish language very poorly, Komuda's books are waaay better). Although Sienkiewicz is one of my favorite authors and the most renown Polish author as well, "The Trilogy" is definitely not the best novel about Tatars. Most of the time they are very bad guys and in the third book, even worse, they are savage traitors who like to torture poor Polish women... Yes, just as Teutonic Knights are merely iron clad butchers in "Krzyżacy" Still since these images are ever existent in the consciousness of society, the more curious ones search for a bit more information, more so, because everybody knows that Sienkiewicz aimed on this sort of 'consolation of polish hearts', thus he was obviously biased; especially Tatars are viable to be redeemed in the eyes of the commoners, since they never did Partitions or any WWII later on ;] Germans however always will be thought of as enemies I'm afraid. Though at least no one seriously doubts now that this Ordo Teutonicus state was very advanced organism, a lot more 'civilised' than the surrouding countries.
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Post by pc18t on Oct 9, 2010 23:11:08 GMT 3
Thanks for the information! I should clarify a little about my situation in my search. My Great Grandfather was born in Grąžčiai (Kėdainiai) Lietuva in 1882 from what I have been told. What I know is there are 2 villages called Grąžčiai in Lithuania, the one he was born in has a population of 0 and from what I understand may not even exist. All we know about him was he was known as Antanas Stepenauckas, he went by several other names, was a bit of a trouble maker, an atheist-marxist, a polyglot who spoke 8 languages, and was in a lot of trouble around 1914. He took my great grandmother to Scotland under the pretense that they were going to the US. He worked as a coal miner in Bell's Hill, Scotland. The British Government found them and threatened to deport them as illegal immigrants back to Lithuania if he didn't join the Army. He ended up digging trenches in France, where he was poisoned by mustard gas. According to my grandfather after he returned from the war the mustard gas poisoning caused him to be incredibly cruel. He died 3 years after the end of World War 1 my grandfather refused to speak of him or about him, taking any information he may have known with him when he passed away. He was the oldest of 10, my great aunt Lokaida and himself were the only 2 to live past 5 years of age. However my great aunt Lokaida is now 98 years old and has been known to make up stories or refuse to say anything about family history in general. One of such stories was when my Great Grandmother died a group of old woman screamed and cried that "The Princess is dead." So to say the least her word isn't the best unfortunately.
And off topic, the SHARP, NS, and RASH situation isn't as big here as it was maybe 20 years ago. A lot of it is kids associating with certain things, and as kids go they tend to tell big stories. I love the fact that soul and more Trad stuff is played there and I know you meant when you said sometimes it can get boring. I know for awhile in Vilnius ska and reggae were getting big, with bands like Dr. Green and such. But it was more second wave ska-core style.
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Post by rrichad on Apr 14, 2012 9:25:53 GMT 3
Old thread - new news. Oddly enough the Lithuanian goddess who used horses to pull the sun across the sky was named Saule. And a Kazakh name is also Saule which means "sunshine" or "sunny". I have no idea why this linguistic connection exists, but I put it down to common Indo European roots three thousand or so years ago... also Lithuanians noted as superb horseback fighters, and horse was part of religious rites for thousands of years, up until 19th Century. Their horses were also small like Kazakh and Mongol horses, but with bigger feet for riding in swamps. Since the Soviets got kicked out in 1989-90 Romuva is displacing Catholicism especially among younger people. We were never really converted after all
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