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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Jan 15, 2007 1:22:11 GMT 3
temur, Golden Horde was separated into a lot more than three parts. See this topic: All the Khanates
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Post by temur on Jan 15, 2007 3:22:09 GMT 3
I ,m very happy you didn,t ignore my message. Here is my another question. Does Ottman empire have some relationship with Mongol tribes. I only know that they once united with Crimean Tatar and fought against Russia. temur, Golden Horde was separated into a lot more than three parts. See this topic: All the Khanates
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Post by kokturk on Jan 15, 2007 3:47:42 GMT 3
I ,m very happy you didn,t ignore my message. Here is my another question. Does Ottman empire have some relationship with Mongol tribes. I only know that they once united with Crimean Tatar and fought against Russia. temur, Golden Horde was separated into a lot more than three parts. See this topic: All the Khanates Crimea was Ottoman Empire's vassal. Once I read a historian of the Ottomans. He claimed that Othman Begh, the founder of the Ottoman Empire is a Chinggisd.
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Post by temur on Jan 15, 2007 6:18:56 GMT 3
You mean the founder of Ottman Empire is a Mongolian. Is Chinggisd equal to the meaning of Genghisi Khan? I ,m very happy you didn,t ignore my message. Here is my another question. Does Ottman empire have some relationship with Mongol tribes. I only know that they once united with Crimean Tatar and fought against Russia. Crimea was Ottoman Empire's vassal. Once I read a historian of the Ottomans. He claimed that Othman Begh, the founder of the Ottoman Empire is a Chinggisd.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Jan 15, 2007 6:21:09 GMT 3
Does Ottman empire have some relationship with Mongol tribes. There's a rumor that Ertuğrul Ğazi's father, Süleyman Shah, drowned in the river Euphrates while fleeing from the Mongol invasion. Osman rulers belonged to the Turkic Kayı tribe which originated from around Merv, Turkmenistan.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Jan 15, 2007 6:23:17 GMT 3
You mean the founder of Ottman Empire is a Mongolian. Is Chinggisd equal to the meaning of Genghisi Khan? The founder of the Ottoman dynasty was a Turk of Kayı tribe. Genghisid means somebody of Genghis Khan's descent, of "Golden seed" (Altan urug).
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Post by kokturk on Jan 15, 2007 17:12:35 GMT 3
The founder of the Ottoman dynasty was a Turk of Kayı tribe. Yes, you are right, but I am saying just one thesis. The traditional scholars take Othman Begh's ancestors to the legendary Oghuz Qaghan. Suleiman Shah, who drown in the Euphrates was from the Seljukid family and he drowned after a war for crown.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 15, 2007 21:40:34 GMT 3
Temür, the Khanate of Crimea became a vassal of the Ottoman Empire during Sultân Mehmed II's reign, and it stayed as that empire's vassal until being subjugated by the Russian Empire in the year 1775. Since the Girays were Chinggisids, they were seen as the possible successors of the Ottoman Empire, because it was believed that if one day the House of 'Osmân would die out, someone from the Giray family would have the right to ascend to the Ottoman throne because they had royal origins going back to Chinggis Khan himself. But the House of 'Osmân was not of Mongol origin, they were clearly Türkmens (even though they mixed with many non-Turks in the following decades, they were still Türkmens from their father's side).
Marquart once proposed a theory that the House of 'Osmân was not from the Türkmen tribe of Qayï, but it was from a Mongolic people known as the Qay. A. Zeki Velidî Togan supported this theory but he tried to proove that the Qay people were Turkic, not Mongolic. Of course this theory does not have any real basis, but it's rather a theory with falsified evidences. On the other hand, there were and are many scholars who doubt that the House of 'Osmân was from the Qayï tribe of the Türkmens; their main point is that there are no evidences from 13th-14th centuries showing any links between the House of 'Osmân and the tribe of Qayï; this connection first appears in the Ottoman sources written in the second half of the 15th century, such as Âshïqpashazâde's Tevârîkh-i Âl-i 'Osmân (Histories of the House of 'Osmân).
We all know that the Ottoman Family was of Türkmen origin, but it's also true that we have no sources nor any evidences from the 13th-14th centuries indicating which Türkmen tribe they belong to. Starting from the 15th century, the claims of Qayï origin appear. I think it's really hard to say anything clearly.
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Post by temur on Jan 16, 2007 4:03:57 GMT 3
Thanks my Forum Lord. Temür, the Khanate of Crimea became a vassal of the Ottoman Empire during Sultân Mehmed II's reign, and it stayed as that empire's vassal until being subjugated by the Russian Empire in the year 1775. Since the Girays were Chinggisids, they were seen as the possible successors of the Ottoman Empire, because it was believed that if one day the House of 'Osmân would die out, someone from the Giray family would have the right to ascend to the Ottoman throne because they had royal origins going back to Chinggis Khan himself. But the House of 'Osmân was not of Mongol origin, they were clearly Türkmens (even though they mixed with many non-Turks in the following decades, they were still Türkmens from their father's side). Marquart once proposed a theory that the House of 'Osmân was not from the Türkmen tribe of Qay? but it was from a Mongolic people known as the Qay. A. Zeki Velid?Togan supported this theory but he tried to proove that the Qay people were Turkic, not Mongolic. Of course this theory does not have any real basis, but it's rather a theory with falsified evidences. On the other hand, there were and are many scholars who doubt that the House of 'Osmân was from the Qay?tribe of the Türkmens; their main point is that there are no evidences from 13th-14th centuries showing any links between the House of 'Osmân and the tribe of Qay? this connection first appears in the Ottoman sources written in the second half of the 15th century, such as Âshïqpashazâde's Tevârîkh-i Âl-i 'Osmân (Histories of the House of 'Osmân). We all know that the Ottoman Family was of Türkmen origin, but it's also true that we have no sources nor any evidences from the 13th-14th centuries indicating which Türkmen tribe they belong to. Starting from the 15th century, the claims of Qay?origin appear. I think it's really hard to say anything clearly.
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