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Post by sarmat on Apr 14, 2008 3:07:29 GMT 3
It perfectly explains it. Theotokos-Virgin Mary was considered the most important divine protector of Zaporozhian Sich. In fact, Virgin Mary always has been getting special attention in Ukraine and the Orthodox feast "The protection of the Mother of God" has been always one of the most popular and important feasts in Ukraine; some even suggest to make it a national holiday. The cult of Theotokos in Zaporozhian Sich was especially strong. The most important Church of the Sich was the Church of "The protection of mother of God" as well. The veneration of Theotokos played such a big role in Zaporozhian Cossacks identity that the church of Theotokos in Sich was eradicated by the Russian authorities after Mazepa's uprising. The most venerated and holy religious artefact of Zaporozhians was a so-called "Irzhavets icon of Theotokos" which had been with Zaporozhians almost all the time of the existence of the Sich since its establishment in the 16th century. According to Cossack legends the icon was able to predict the outcomes of the battles. Likewise it was lost after the battle of Poltava. That's why Zaporozhian's put the symbol of Theotokos on their banner. Their banner BTW also included other famous figures of Christian Orthodox symbolism, like for example archangel Mikhail.
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Post by Temüjin on Apr 14, 2008 19:48:59 GMT 3
if they have Archangel Michael on their flags, why not Virgin Mary? Austrians had that: I'm still not convinced about Crescent & star representing virgin mary. also you can see on most flags crescent & star are not next to each other.
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Post by sarmat on Apr 14, 2008 21:41:58 GMT 3
Virgin Mary is represented both by Crescent (alone) or Crescent and star. There was no accepted geraldic symbol for Archenagel Michael AFAIK and anyway his figure was not that important for Zaporozhians as Virgin Mary. That's why Crescent is present on most of the Zaporozhian banners unlike Archangel Mikhail. In any case, this in not my finding. I read it in Ukrainian book where the origin of Crescent on Zaporozhian banner was explained in detail.
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Post by Temüjin on Apr 15, 2008 20:04:23 GMT 3
i looked it up and found no reference that crescent & star served to represent Virgin Mary. German wikipedia has a subpage of symbolism realted to Mary and it was not listed. also, since you say Mary was more important than Michael, why did they took the pains and painted him as a person but mary, which was more important according to you, was just crescent & star?
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Post by sarmat on Apr 16, 2008 3:32:44 GMT 3
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Post by trout11 on Apr 16, 2008 20:10:37 GMT 3
Let me ask the question and explore further. during the 17th Century did the Crimean Tartar have flags of their own??
And what did they look like during that same period..
Since the Crescant was adopted by the Tartars,is it possible That the some cossack flags already made may have pleased the Khan?? (dont know, knowing full well it represented something else)
Then another question is the 6 pointed Star which in todays standard is recognised as a Hebrew symbol.
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Post by trout11 on Apr 16, 2008 20:30:04 GMT 3
To continue... the symbols could represent anything depending how far back in history you go and who you talk to.. The cross the crescant the star ....for all we know they are adopted pagan symbols of old and used in those days for something else..
So it would be interesting to make a timeline map to get an overall picture.
Look how many changes the American flag went through in the early years or the Former Soviet Union flag Hammer and Sickle with a star. They weren't Christian related nor Islamic related.
Its tough to say 400 years ago what the representation may have been at that time at that moment. Documented facts are scarce and few. But everyone is entitles to an opinion..
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Post by trout11 on Apr 16, 2008 20:34:59 GMT 3
Yes Links are nice, good opinions and data, but all 3rd or 4th hand information. Its not first hand data so I question this.
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Post by Temüjin on Apr 16, 2008 21:54:07 GMT 3
well i'm not arguing against you point is, Crescent does appear with Virgin Mary representations BUT only together with her and without Star/Sun symbol. the crescent is no substitude (representation) of her, it appears only together with her. also there was not a single (including yours) representation of Virgin Mary including the star/sun symbol, which features quite prominently on the flags too. the example you gave also only shows the flag/coat of arms of a medieval knight and it is coincidence because the crescents (not just one) are aligned differently than usual (Virgin Mary always stands on top of a crescent).
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Post by sarmat on Apr 18, 2008 19:59:21 GMT 3
You are too picky on this. I just think that Virgin Mary hypo is much more logical than copying the crescent from Tatars' banners. And for some reasons crescent was considered a Christian symbol among Eastern Orthodox, like I said a lot of crosses on the churches in Russia and Ukraine have crescents. It's most likely coming from Byzantium, where crescent as a symbol of virgin Diana became later a symbol of virgin Mary. Check this link also BTW on the bottom the section "Emblem" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ByzantiumBut I have to say that I aslo red that crescent and star represent some ancient Slavic gods that's why this symbol was common in Slavic geraldics.
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Post by sarmat on Apr 18, 2008 20:02:55 GMT 3
Let me ask the question and explore further. during the 17th Century did the Crimean Tartar have flags of their own?? And what did they look like during that same period.. Since the Crescant was adopted by the Tartars,is it possible That the some cossack flags already made may have pleased the Khan?? (dont know, knowing full well it represented something else) Then another question is the 6 pointed Star which in todays standard is recognised as a Hebrew symbol. I think Tatars didn't have banners originally, but used various bunchuks with Tamga symbol. Probably later they adopted crescent banners from Ottomans. 6 pointed star is a Jewish symbol "the star of David," but as well as crescent it was used in the other cultures as well. It's another symbol of Virgin Mary BTW. 6 pointed star also served as Tamga for some Mongolian tribes as well
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Post by Temüjin on Apr 18, 2008 20:30:59 GMT 3
You are too picky on this. I just think that Virgin Mary hypo is much more logical than copying the crescent from Tatars' banners. And for some reasons crescent was considered a Christian symbol among Eastern Orthodox, like I said a lot of crosses on the churches in Russia and Ukraine have crescents. It's most likely coming from Byzantium, where crescent as a symbol of virgin Diana became later a symbol of virgin Mary. Check this link also BTW on the bottom the section "Emblem" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ByzantiumBut I have to say that I aslo red that crescent and star represent some ancient Slavic gods that's why this symbol was common in Slavic geraldics. well i'm not picky, i never said i believe that the crescent is copied from Tatar banners. as of now i have no real opinion but i don't belive at all in the Virgin Mary symbolism. let's analyze: all crescents i've seen so far were integrated part of the FULL depiction of the Virgin Mary. see different heraldic emblems at the German wikipedia: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_%28Mutter_Jesu%29#Heraldikcoat of arms of some German towns with Virgin mary. you can see that she is always standing on top of a crescent. also there is never a star. also, the link you gave said that the star is representative of Virgin Mary. even if so, by looking at the flags above, most time the star is not next tot he crescent and at least on one flag the "star" is in fact clearly a sun. so at least in this case it seems to be a sun/moon dualism. anotehr thing. can we even be sure the cross is supposed to represent christianity? orthodox crosses had another beam below the cross which easily distinguishes it from other christian crosses. so at the moment i have no reason to believe that the motives have any religious meaning at all, other than Archangel Michael.
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Post by trout11 on May 15, 2008 17:45:47 GMT 3
How would one go about finding out the dimensions of these cossack flags..?? And what would you think the predominant material was being used at the time..
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Post by Temüjin on May 25, 2008 15:38:43 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 27, 2008 21:47:54 GMT 3
Yes I had watched that movie when I was in high school
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