|
Post by nanman on Jul 10, 2008 12:56:15 GMT 3
This is a really interesting thread.
Do you think there is a link between the Scythians and Sakas and the Tarim Mummies?
|
|
|
Post by kirischi on Jul 10, 2008 16:06:19 GMT 3
The Mummy's features is Iranic and it's not a theory and I don't think another so-called theory exists. Where did you hear that?Yeah the region is now and has been land of the Altaics but doesn't ever mean that before that it hadn't belonged to some other people. And I don't know how you find the Iranic theory bunk?! and how is the logic against it? could you give us your sources? Good horsemen, well true they are, but there are still other pure Iranic good horsemen over here in Iran, it is not only confined to Oghuz Turkmens. Who told you, they are better silver smiths than other Iranians?!! Like I said, the Dna results show the Kazaks to be closest living relatives, which in itself makes the Iranic theory bunk, sorry to break your Iranic heart. My father was an Azeri Turk from Iran, so naturally I have many relatives and friends there. I know much about Iran, and Turkmens are the best horse-breeders, and they use their silver-smith skills to adorn their horses. And they do it so well that one has to conclude that their art goes back thousands of years. Persians simply are not a horse people, nowhere in the Persian parts of Iran is there a tradition that even comes halfway close to what the Turkmens do. As for silversmiths, I am not saying that there are no Persian silversmiths, I am sure there are, but the Turkmens have an original style unique to them, which again goes back thousands of years.
|
|
|
Post by Azadan Januspar on Jul 10, 2008 18:46:56 GMT 3
Bunk?! Oh Really? Could you provide us with your sources?...even though they say Kazaks are the closest living people, I guess that apparently does not show that the mummy was Turkic origin as it is anthropologically not! and it would show that Kazaks have(tho they seem to like to claim having the purest of the Turkic bloodlines) have Scythian genes, which scientifically is not unusual as the steppes of Kazakhstan was before the arrival of the Altaics, an Iranic homeland to nomad Iranics). Hehe No worries. such things won't break any Iranic hearts at all (I don't know about your own heart-breaks tho) as Iranic hearts have been so silent comparing to yours and they are sure that the truth about them is always unchangeable, though they do not usually like to say it aloud. Good for you but off topic ( yeah you are right, Turks largely immigrated to the homelands of Iranics) Best horse-breeders?! I bet you say so. but comparing to who? yeah todays Turkmenistan's been always a good place for horse-breedings but that doesn't ever mean that Turkmens introduced that tradition and quality of the Caspian horses to that region. Caspian horse is a good breed in that region which was one of the typical homelands of the Indo-Iranians, the wide range of Caspain breed covered much of the steppes and it is believed it was progenitor to Arabic, Kurdish and Turkmen Yamuts and Akal tekes . Persians are not simply horse people?!! according to who? thanks to the testimony of the historical accounts (even those of iranic sworn enemies) Persians (as ethnic groups of Parsa) and Iranians as whole, if weren't no longer living in the steppes, were however good horse people! the traditions of horse culture and fine smithery tracing in Steppes, lasted even till the times of the Parthian and Sassanian Iran, in which in spite of many obscurities caused by their then times enemies in the accounts, it is still yet crystal clear that horse culture developed and reached it's peak in both Military and everyday culture and horse breeding was a popular occupation in those times. But it was somehow discontinued after Iranian enemies finally managed to break in from almost every direction and occupy the land thus bringing their own cultures as well as imposed sovereignty, But to make it brief for you the reason why for that in those times; Iranians in general become poorer from the economic point of view, therefore couldn't afford horse and the tradition of the necessity of horses or e.g. learning archery skills started to fade away, besides the most anti-Iranic ruling dynasties (Arabic, Turkish and Mongol) apart from the years of plunder, did not even support the horse breeding in regions like Parsa or Pahla, resulting in discoloring of the iranic fine traditions of horse breeding, so that amongst a nation whose ancestors was clear good horsemen now Turkmens claiming to be the best and to be the first. funny the future will be different So If you say Persians (or meaning Iranians ) are not horse people, firstly go and read variety of accounts and books about them, please. the aspects of deep horse culture is still obvious amongst today naive Iranians. I again say, please name or put your sources in here . The Turkmens have their original, unique style and it goes back to thousands and thousands of years, does it ever mean they are the best in metal working?!! one may ask him/herself.
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 10, 2008 23:10:55 GMT 3
The Turks migrated, not immigrated into Iran Kirischi, it is a well-known fact that the original Iranic peoples, including the Medes and Persians, were horse-riding nomads living around the Aral Sea before they started their migrations during the 1600-1500 BCs. The Persians (only one of the many Iranic peoples) later became sedentary in Iran but some other Iranic peoples continued to live as horse-riding nomads, such as the Sarmatians and Parthians. Plus, the Sâsânids had a powerful cavalry force
|
|
|
Post by kirischi on Jul 11, 2008 2:30:17 GMT 3
Bunk?! Oh Really? Could you provide us with your sources?...even though they say Kazaks are the closest living people, I guess that apparently does not show that the mummy was Turkic origin as it is anthropologically not! and it would show that Kazaks have(tho they seem to like to claim having the purest of the Turkic bloodlines) have Scythian genes, which scientifically is not unusual as the steppes of Kazakhstan was before the arrival of the Altaics, an Iranic homeland to nomad Iranics). Hehe No worries. such things won't break any Iranic hearts at all (I don't know about your own heart-breaks tho) as Iranic hearts have been so silent comparing to yours and they are sure that the truth about them is always unchangeable, though they do not usually like to say it aloud. Good for you but off topic ( yeah you are right, Turks largely immigrated to the homelands of Iranics) Best horse-breeders?! I bet you say so. but comparing to who? yeah todays Turkmenistan's been always a good place for horse-breedings but that doesn't ever mean that Turkmens introduced that tradition and quality of the Caspian horses to that region. Caspian horse is a good breed in that region which was one of the typical homelands of the Indo-Iranians, the wide range of Caspain breed covered much of the steppes and it is believed it was progenitor to Arabic, Kurdish and Turkmen Yamuts and Akal tekes . Persians are not simply horse people?!! according to who? thanks to the testimony of the historical accounts (even those of iranic sworn enemies) Persians (as ethnic groups of Parsa) and Iranians as whole, if weren't no longer living in the steppes, were however good horse people! the traditions of horse culture and fine smithery tracing in Steppes, lasted even till the times of the Parthian and Sassanian Iran, in which in spite of many obscurities caused by their then times enemies in the accounts, it is still yet crystal clear that horse culture developed and reached it's peak in both Military and everyday culture and horse breeding was a popular occupation in those times. But it was somehow discontinued after Iranian enemies finally managed to break in from almost every direction and occupy the land thus bringing their own cultures as well as imposed sovereignty, But to make it brief for you the reason why for that in those times; Iranians in general become poorer from the economic point of view, therefore couldn't afford horse and the tradition of the necessity of horses or e.g. learning archery skills started to fade away, besides the most anti-Iranic ruling dynasties (Arabic, Turkish and Mongol) apart from the years of plunder, did not even support the horse breeding in regions like Parsa or Pahla, resulting in discoloring of the iranic fine traditions of horse breeding, so that amongst a nation whose ancestors was clear good horsemen now Turkmens claiming to be the best and to be the first. funny the future will be different So If you say Persians (or meaning Iranians ) are not horse people, firstly go and read variety of accounts and books about them, please. the aspects of deep horse culture is still obvious amongst today naive Iranians. I again say, please name or put your sources in here . The Turkmens have their original, unique style and it goes back to thousands and thousands of years, does it ever mean they are the best in metal working?!! one may ask him/herself. First of all you need to relax, and stop seeing your people as the center of the universe. If u want to have a rational discussion thats fine, but if u are here to beat your chest and display your inferiority complex than go talk to a shrink. Comments like you "Turks immigrated to the Iranic homeland" show the depth of your chauvenism. Also if u are so sure about mummy's genetics why do u even ask others? You are so confused that u go as far as to say that even if the mummy has Kazakh genetics that in reality they are Iranics, that is hyper-ludicrous. I guess according to u everybody on this earth is Iranic.
|
|
|
Post by kirischi on Jul 11, 2008 2:46:40 GMT 3
The Turks migrated, not immigrated into Iran Kirischi, it is a well-known fact that the original Iranic peoples, including the Medes and Persians, were horse-riding nomads living around the Aral Sea before they started their migrations during the 1600-1500 BCs. The Persians (only one of the many Iranic peoples) later became sedentary in Iran but some other Iranic peoples continued to live as horse-riding nomads, such as the Sarmatians and Parthians. Plus, the Sâsânids had a powerful cavalry force Look u misunderstood, almost every nation on this earth has ridden horses. I am talking about the horse culture, the Turks have been one with the horse for thousands of years. To give u an example, old Turkic Shamans used to take a horse skull, place strings of horse hair across it, and play those strings with a bow made of horse hair during religious ceremonies. To get back to the topic, I would like to present you and everybody interested with a link. İt is a book that deals with the Scythians as well as other peoples of that time period. It also deals with the faults of the Iranic theory. s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/20Roots/ZakievGenesis/ZakievGenesisCoverEn.htmHope u enjoy it.
|
|
|
Post by sarmat on Jul 11, 2008 8:55:11 GMT 3
Bunk?! Oh Really? Could you provide us with your sources?...even though they say Kazaks are the closest living people, I guess that apparently does not show that the mummy was Turkic origin as it is anthropologically not! and it would show that Kazaks have(tho they seem to like to claim having the purest of the Turkic bloodlines) have Scythian genes, which scientifically is not unusual as the steppes of Kazakhstan was before the arrival of the Altaics, an Iranic homeland to nomad Iranics). I think it's quite obvious that Iranic nomades didn't just vaporized without any visible trace left. In fact they just intermixed with Turks. DNA of Saka mummy from Kazakhstan is a very good proof of that. Modern Kazakhs and Kyrgyzs are valid descendants of Skythians. And IMO it's obvious that Oguz tribes included another Iranic component i.e. Parthrian element as well. Moreover, the culture of both people was very close. Take Tamga for example. So many Tamgas are similar for all the steppans regardless of their ethnic origins all Sarmatians, Turks and Mongols have similar Tamgas. There are no proofs that the relations between Nomadic Iranics and Turks were very hostile etc. In fact, apparently large proto-Turkic tribal confiderations like Huns included a notable amount of Iranic nomades as well. Also nomadism among Iranics was still there up until the 15th century. It's very interesting that when Kypchaks escaped to Hungary from Mongols in the 13th century, there also were tribes of Nomadic Alan-Iranics among them. Both Alans and Kypchaks lived together and served as cavalry units in Hungarian army and Alan language in Hungary complitely disappeared only around the 17th century.
|
|
|
Post by Azadan Januspar on Jul 11, 2008 9:39:51 GMT 3
I m always calm. You see! ( I didn't even care if you were relaxed or harsh responding some off topics in this thread for the first time) Scythian and Persans are not horse people how on earth is this two related?. It was obviously you who made up some relation to the the very name of the topic and this sayings of yours Persians are not definitely horse people and Turkmens are fine metal workers Oh God who says to who?! besides nothing ever in my posts seems to show seeing myself or my people in the center of universe and again I don't know about yourself. About that inferiority complex I suggest you to watch your words OK? (neutral people here who may happen to pass by this thread may think vice versa ) And I'm always ready to talk with proofs and account not being keen to prove some specific thing. But I may add here that confronting posts like you I surely defend what I think is the truth. ( in fact you are not the first Turkmen or Turk to jump from a topic to another one irrelevant to express some propagandas, I have met many in my country saying more ridiculous things and after that they are finished talking they start to accuse these naive Iranians I see, as fascists and chauvinists ) That's a historical fact yet it is better than propagandas most of the Turkics people in Iran spread like we were the first inhabitants, we were the first horse people or hehe on thing I heard from a Turkmen recently is that queen Tomyris was a Turkmen who tought Persians a good lesson. I've never burned for example the book of Dede Korkut (in contrast to burning and insulting Shahnameh) or anything resembling Turkish culture in my life nor have I insulted them of being of invaders in my land telling jokes about them but I'm always on defensive stance about movements of their chauvinists about the defenseless todays Iranic culture. the guys who are far more in number than like you said Iranian chauvinists (both I resent) in Iran itself. that's not what I said, I SAID: "please do provide us with sources about your claims" capito?! and the rest what I said you could see thoroughly in sarmat's post. Hey by the way I don't like to hear rude words about me in this thread again as I myself never let me use such words. So if you like to speak such biased words go to some Chauvinist Turkist or Turanist forum cause this place is more serious place studying Steppe history. And about the domestication of the horse you could easily check the related article in Wikipedia.
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 11, 2008 14:09:05 GMT 3
Look u misunderstood, almost every nation on this earth has ridden horses. I am talking about the horse culture, the Turks have been one with the horse for thousands of years. To give u an example, old Turkic Shamans used to take a horse skull, place strings of horse hair across it, and play those strings with a bow made of horse hair during religious ceremonies. So what? It was not the Turks only who did that.
|
|
|
Post by kirischi on Jul 11, 2008 15:26:40 GMT 3
Look u misunderstood, almost every nation on this earth has ridden horses. I am talking about the horse culture, the Turks have been one with the horse for thousands of years. To give u an example, old Turkic Shamans used to take a horse skull, place strings of horse hair across it, and play those strings with a bow made of horse hair during religious ceremonies. So what? It was not the Turks only who did that. So what? thats all u have to say? Weak.
|
|
|
Post by kirischi on Jul 11, 2008 15:30:16 GMT 3
I m always calm. You see! ( I didn't even care if you were relaxed or harsh responding some off topics in this thread for the first time) Scythian and Persans are not horse people how on earth is this two related?. It was obviously you who made up some relation to the the very name of the topic and this sayings of yours Persians are not definitely horse people and Turkmens are fine metal workers Oh God who says to who?! besides nothing ever in my posts seems to show seeing myself or my people in the center of universe and again I don't know about yourself. About that inferiority complex I suggest you to watch your words OK? (neutral people here who may happen to pass by this thread may think vice versa ) And I'm always ready to talk with proofs and account not being keen to prove some specific thing. But I may add here that confronting posts like you I surely defend what I think is the truth. ( in fact you are not the first Turkmen or Turk to jump from a topic to another one irrelevant to express some propagandas, I have met many in my country saying more ridiculous things and after that they are finished talking they start to accuse these naive Iranians I see, as fascists and chauvinists ) That's a historical fact yet it is better than propagandas most of the Turkics people in Iran spread like we were the first inhabitants, we were the first horse people or hehe on thing I heard from a Turkmen recently is that queen Tomyris was a Turkmen who tought Persians a good lesson. I've never burned for example the book of Dede Korkut (in contrast to burning and insulting Shahnameh) or anything resembling Turkish culture in my life nor have I insulted them of being of invaders in my land telling jokes about them but I'm always on defensive stance about movements of their chauvinists about the defenseless todays Iranic culture. the guys who are far more in number than like you said Iranian chauvinists (both I resent) in Iran itself. that's not what I said, I SAID: "please do provide us with sources about your claims" capito?! and the rest what I said you could see thoroughly in sarmat's post. Hey by the way I don't like to hear rude words about me in this thread again as I myself never let me use such words. So if you like to speak such biased words go to some Chauvinist Turkist or Turanist forum cause this place is more serious place studying Steppe history. And about the domestication of the horse you could easily check the related article in Wikipedia. Good for u, keep displaying your inferiority complex for all to see, go on dont stop, please dont stop. Wikipedia? Oh yeah great source, where anyone can edit information, I am sure u learn everything from there.
|
|
|
Post by Azadan Januspar on Jul 11, 2008 17:22:48 GMT 3
So it is getting clear why you suddenly came with your BUNK words here and trying to lead astray the thread from the topic and spreading some newly made chauvinist propagandas and you are getting pissed off?! hehe Inferiority complex, nice word I think you have sensed that feeling so well, that it always crosses your mind and you like to repeat it again and again for no good reason. Maybe, We should open a thread and let you talk more about this mental disorder. I know wikipedia is not a reliable source every little one does! but that is a good starting point for you buddy.
|
|
|
Post by kirischi on Jul 11, 2008 19:39:11 GMT 3
Bunk?! Oh Really? Could you provide us with your sources?...even though they say Kazaks are the closest living people, I guess that apparently does not show that the mummy was Turkic origin as it is anthropologically not! and it would show that Kazaks have(tho they seem to like to claim having the purest of the Turkic bloodlines) have Scythian genes, which scientifically is not unusual as the steppes of Kazakhstan was before the arrival of the Altaics, an Iranic homeland to nomad Iranics). I think it's quite obvious that Iranic nomades didn't just vaporized without any visible trace left. In fact they just intermixed with Turks. DNA of Saka mummy from Kazakhstan is a very good proof of that. Modern Kazakhs and Kyrgyzs are valid descendants of Skythians. And IMO it's obvious that Oguz tribes included another Iranic component i.e. Parthrian element as well. Moreover, the culture of both people was very close. Take Tamga for example. So many Tamgas are similar for all the steppans regardless of their ethnic origins all Sarmatians, Turks and Mongols have similar Tamgas. There are no proofs that the relations between Nomadic Iranics and Turks were very hostile etc. In fact, apparently large proto-Turkic tribal confiderations like Huns included a notable amount of Iranic nomades as well. Also nomadism among Iranics was still there up until the 15th century. It's very interesting that when Kypchaks escaped to Hungary from Mongols in the 13th century, there also were tribes of Nomadic Alan-Iranics among them. Both Alans and Kypchaks lived together and served as cavalry units in Hungarian army and Alan language in Hungary complitely disappeared only around the 17th century. Well the main problem with this topic is that it is shrouded in mystery. Most of what we know about not only Scythians but others in the area comes down to us from Herodotus, which does not give us an accurate enough picture to say for certain who was what. Therefore, as we see here, people break up into camps. I believe they were Turkic, this makes sense to me, and fits into my logic, as I am sure what u believe fits into your logic as well. And so it will be until a new discovery is made that puts beyond a doubt their true identity. What u are proposing about inter-mingling is certainly a part of modern human nature, but was it that way back then?
|
|
|
Post by Temüjin on Jul 11, 2008 19:40:31 GMT 3
that kind of logic does not explain at all Mongols, Hungarians...etc
|
|
|
Post by kirischi on Jul 11, 2008 19:43:31 GMT 3
So it is getting clear why you suddenly came with your BUNK words here and trying to lead astray the thread from the topic and spreading some newly made chauvinist propagandas and you are getting pissed off?! hehe Inferiority complex, nice word I think you have sensed that feeling so well, that it always crosses your mind and you like to repeat it again and again for no good reason. Maybe, We should open a thread and let you talk more about this mental disorder. I know wikipedia is not a reliable source every little one does! but that is a good starting point for you buddy. Hey you are the one mentioning wikipedia, now youre putting in on me? Could you not come up with anything better than that? Perhaps something more original and more adult-like? Kinda took me back to my high-school years, thanks for remining me kid, by the way when do you graduate? ;D
|
|