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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2008 11:37:04 GMT 3
ryukyurhymer, I once heard that there's a Pan-Turanic politic party in Japan, is this true? If so, how powerful/influential are they?
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Post by ryukyurhymer on Jul 27, 2008 6:21:20 GMT 3
Never heard of one. and I guess that'll tell you how powerful they are if they exist In Japan, the biggest and most influential party is the LDP.. they've been dominant for a very long time and only recently, have they lost some influence to the DP. There's also a "Buddhist" Party (in name only) and a Communist one, but I've never heard of a Pan-Turanic one. There's not too many in Japan who take the Altaic language theory seriously. There's similarities in grammar, and maybe a few words even, but the differences far out weigh the similarities. Take away the Chinese based words in Japanese, and compare the native Japanese words to any Altaic language, there's barely any similarities. Same could be said about Altaic language family and Uralic families. Numbers, common words, etc. The only other language Japanese has a close relationship to are the Ryukyuan Language family, in which the latter preserves more aspects of ancient proto-Japanese than modern Japanese does. one thing I'd like to point out is that both the modern Japanese and Ryukyuans are a mixture of Yayoi and Jomon (primarily). the Jomon are said to be "Old Mongoloids", which used to live in mainland Asia but migrated outwards far far long ago, their skull shape and features do not really resemble any of the current mainland Asian people. The Yayoi are considered "new Mongoloids". These "New Mongoloids" came out of perhaps Siberia (probably the same stock of people as the Altaic peoples), and migrated into the Japanese islands and slowly pushed the Old Mongoloids to the extreme north and south and eventually mixed with them. Despite this, many traits of the older Mongoloids still remain.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2008 7:29:28 GMT 3
What do you mean by "mainland Asia"?
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Post by ryukyurhymer on Jul 27, 2008 12:45:18 GMT 3
mainland asia means just that, mainland asia. Japan, taiwan, etc = an island in asia, not the mainland
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 27, 2008 13:51:19 GMT 3
What do you mean by "mainland Asia"? What would you understand from "mainland Asia"?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2008 6:48:02 GMT 3
Aahhhh, I see now.
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Post by ryukyurhymer on Jul 29, 2008 2:15:05 GMT 3
on a side note, there recently was a big Karate tournament here (Okinawa is the home of Karate), and there was a very big delegation from Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan. A friend working there told me that she thought some Kazakhs looked very Korean, but that many Kazakhs looked exactly like Okinawans lol.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 29, 2008 14:58:38 GMT 3
That's quiet interesting
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Post by nanman on Jul 29, 2008 20:37:07 GMT 3
but that many Kazakhs looked exactly like Okinawans lol. When you said, some Kazakhs look like Okinawans. Did you mean in the sense that Okinawans are a little different in look to majority Japanese in Japan and have some Southern Mongoloidal features. Were you surprised that some Kazakhs kind of look a bit Southern? If that was your point then you are not the only person who has had this observation. When I was in ET I saw some Kazakhs who almost looked Southern Chinese like people, kind of rural Cantonese or Miao mix
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Post by ryukyurhymer on Jul 31, 2008 4:09:58 GMT 3
but that many Kazakhs looked exactly like Okinawans lol. When you said, some Kazakhs look like Okinawans. Did you mean in the sense that Okinawans are a little different in look to majority Japanese in Japan and have some Southern Mongoloidal features. Were you surprised that some Kazakhs kind of look a bit Southern? If that was your point then you are not the only person who has had this observation. When I was in ET I saw some Kazakhs who almost looked Southern Chinese like people, kind of rural Cantonese or Miao mix probably would be a mistake to say that Okinawans have southern mongoloid features as they are not southern mongoloid, but a mix of "neo mongoloids" of the north, and old mongoloids of the north, but with these older mongoloid features, combined with the bright sun here that causes easy tanning, it gives Okinawans the appearance of having southern Mongoloid features.. probably the same is true for Kazakhs who are a mix of things, but do not have any southern mongoloid ancestry. but yes, i have seen some Kazakhs who look more southern, which is why I made that comment! for example, i found this on some other forum. a music video of a popular kazakh boy band. one of the guys looks quite southern. jp.youtube.com/watch?v=PkexZPfif1ki personally like the southern look more
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Post by sarmat on Jul 31, 2008 23:40:23 GMT 3
I don't think Kazakhs look similar to Japanese. It's very easy to tell whether a person is Kazakh or Japanese.
Southern Chinese at the same time look different from those above.
Of course their might be some separate examples of similarities but those are exceptions that don't represent the general pattern.
In fact, many Kazakhs seem to have at least some "Caucasian racial features" as well.
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Post by lamasu on Dec 1, 2008 20:30:29 GMT 3
first of all, hi guys! Officially the Korean and Japanese languages are isolated, they don't belong to any language category yet. indeed it depends meanly from the linguistic "traditions", the russians (who know the altaic languages better that the occidentals) believe that the korean and japanese are altaic languages, the occidental linguists instead are usually more cautious (but generally they don't exclude it). I'm think that the russian position is very plausible, and if you look the "etymological dictionary of the altaic languages" of S. Starostim, A. Dybo, O. Mudrak you will find not only a very large nomber of common roots, but a list of common suffix and grammatical structures too. Some example (grammar): proto altaic (PA) plural suffix *-t'- : P-TungusManchu (TM) : *-ta(n) / *-te(n), Mong. -d, Turk *-t, PJapanese (PJ) *ta-ti, PKorean (PK) *-tï-r PA accusative *be: TM *ba/*be, OJ wo PA partitive *ga: TM *ga, OJ possessive ga, ?mong. accusative *-gh PA genitive *-n´V: PTM *ngi, J no, Kor -n´, Mong *n PA 1st person pronoun bì Tung. *bi, *bue, *mü-n-; Mong. *bi, *min-; *ba, *man- ; Turk *be- ; Jpn. *bà-; Kor. *úrí and i could continue... Some example of words, i open a page by chance: PA *miûko "snake": Tung. *mükü, Mong *mogaji, turk *böke, Jpn *múkátai, Kor *mëk- PA *miuktu "stump", "horn fundation": Tung. *mugde-ke, Mong. *mugdji-, Kor. *mìth PA *miul´i "ignorant": Tung. *mul-(di-), Mong. *mulgu-, Jpn. *misu-, Kor. *mòrá PA *miúl´i "ice", "hail" Mong. *möl-sü, *möl-dür, Turk. *bû(n)r´, Jpn. *mínsë-rá-, Kor. *múrúi PA *miùní "a kinf of skin or cloth": Tung. *mune-, Jpn. *mìnë PA *miûndjù "a kind of badger": Tung. *mô[ndj]ika, Mong. *mindji, Jpn. *mùnsìnà PA *miungo "suffering": Tung. *mingî-, Mong. *mung, Turk. *bung, Jpn. munkua- ... And there are about 3000 roots in this dictionary...
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 1, 2008 21:09:48 GMT 3
This is interesting. I was just reading "Telling General Linguists about Altaic" last night. The article is available via JSTOR. It talks about the current state of Altaic linguistic research and the status of Korean and Japanese within the family.
Korean tends to be considered closer to the "micro-Altaic" languages (Turkic, Mongolic, Tungustic) than Japanese. One proposal even had the Tungustic and Korean groups lumped together.
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Post by Subu'atai on Dec 1, 2008 21:58:59 GMT 3
Koreans came from Tungus steppes, so at first yes they were our relatives. Over time with intermixing, sedentarisation and sinofication they became today's Koreans. They are a different people now, as is most of the Altai - our reality.
I don't see them as relatives now, perhaps if we met face to face with the Chosun leader thousands and thousands of years ago who led their tribe into Korea, we can call ourselves relatives. But today, we see an impure race, whose loyalty is not to the steppes or nomadism, but the ways of China and Japan.
That's my conclusion, they are Koreans, they are Japanese, let's leave it as that. Their ways are not our ways, especially the racial discrimination and genocide of the Ainus by the Japanese. Nay, we are very different people.
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Post by ALTAR on Dec 1, 2008 22:35:40 GMT 3
Koreans are geographically and culturally closer to Turks and Mongols. They had many cultural, diplomatic relations with them. After the invasion of Kore by Mongols, Mongols settled Uighurs tot he big cities. Many of Turks had been assimialted in Korea Society. They influenced Korea Daily Life, Trade and others.
Abdurrashid Ibrahim, a Tatar traveler and a spy of the Ottoman Sultan II.Abdulhamid visited all Asian(Russian Siberia, Japan, China, Korea etc.)and Muslim Countries. He also wrote: "Koreans had similar traditions and clothes with Idel-Ural Turks." in his memories.
Today South Korean people favored Turks because Turkish Army fought China, North Korea and liberated South Korea with United Nations Forces. We have many martyrs whose graves were in Pusan and they have been still visited by Koreans. We're also proud of them. So that Many Turks have positive emotions about Korean people too.
Japan and Japanese are very far to Turks and Mongols but there are many similarities btwn these people.
I heard that Many Japanese Scholars, Historians see themselves as relatives of Mongolians. Its very interesting and need to make many researches about these subjects.
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