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Post by Atabeg on Feb 13, 2007 1:08:10 GMT 3
So what are the Turkmens of the eastern or of the western branch I allways thought they were of the western branch
but someone who know quite a deal about steppe history said this
Turkmens are descendants of 9 Oghuz who were of eastern Kok Turks; not of the western. The western Oghuz, were 10 tribes (most probably Uighurs; they were commanded by 9 Oghuzes anyhow; althought they were originally the same geographical group) sent to defeat Hephtalites who escaped Turks and were living at Iranian borders.
so what is it?
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Feb 13, 2007 4:43:28 GMT 3
In my opinion, it is not correct to associate the branches of modern scientific linguistic groups/branches with the political and tribal groups/branches of the Turks that existed more that 1000 years ago.
The descendants of Toghuz Oghuz (9 Oghuz) are generally considered to be the medieval Uyghurs.
In the Turkic qaghanate, the word "oghuz" was a socio-political term synonymous to the tribe, so Segiz Oghuz would mean "eight tribes", Toghuz Oghuz - "nine tribes", and so on. "Oghuz" was a common self-determination term for almost all Turkic tribes of the Medieval.
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Post by Atabeg on Feb 13, 2007 18:12:19 GMT 3
this guys says that the original Turkic peoples of Turkey who came from CA are not related to the modern Turkmens in the sence of after the azeris the Turkmens are the closest
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Feb 14, 2007 1:13:57 GMT 3
Anadolu, Azeri and Turkmen Turks were all part of Seljuq empire, they are closely related by dialects.
Who is this guy? How the hell Anadolu Turks are not related to the Oghuz-speaking Turkmens?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2007 11:51:30 GMT 3
I think 'Turkmen' is the singular and plural form of the word, 'Turkmens' is incorrect.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Feb 14, 2007 12:33:59 GMT 3
"Turkmen" most likely means "Turkic person"
-men/-man is an augmentative that is used to build new nouns regarding peoples.
Compare with other similarly structered Turkic words like:
Nouns from nouns: - ataman (Cossack chief) derives from "ata" (father, older person) - chevirmen, tercuman (translator) from tercume, cheviri (translation) - qaharman (hero) from "qahar" (passion, anger)
Nouns from verbs: - oyretmen (teacher) from verb "oyretmek"(to teach) - korermen (viewe) from "kormek" (to watch) - shabarman (messenger) from verb "shabu" (to ride) - alaman (bandit) from "almak" (to take)
The change from Turk to Turkmen probably occured due to a new Turkic ethnogroup emergence, a Seljuq Turkmens who migrated West of the original Turkic dominion.
In an essence, among Oghuz Turks, "Turk" and "Turkmen" were synonymous and interchangable concepts.
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Post by Atabeg on Feb 15, 2007 1:08:14 GMT 3
Anadolu, Azeri and Turkmen Turks were all part of Seljuq empire, they are closely related by dialects. Who is this guy? How the hell Anadolu Turks are not related to the Oghuz-speaking Turkmens? gok_toruk from AE(Allempires)
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Post by Atabeg on Feb 15, 2007 1:10:52 GMT 3
"Turkmen" most likely means "Turkic person"-men/-man is an augmentative that is used to build new nouns regarding peoples. Compare with other similarly structered Turkic words like: Nouns from nouns: - ataman (Cossack chief) derives from "ata" (father, older person) - chevirmen, tercuman (translator) from tercume, cheviri (translation) - qaharman (hero) from "qahar" (passion, anger) Nouns from verbs: - oyretmen (teacher) from verb "oyretmek"(to teach) - korermen (viewe) from "kormek" (to watch) - shabarman (messenger) from verb "shabu" (to ride) - alaman (bandit) from "almak" (to take) The change from Turk to Turkmen probably occured due to a new Turkic ethnogroup emergence, a Seljuq Turkmens who migrated West of the original Turkic dominion. In an essence, among Oghuz Turks, "Turk" and "Turkmen" were synonymous and interchangable concepts. is qaharman & modern Turkish Kahraman(hero) the same because I allways thought it was persian?
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Post by kokturk on Feb 15, 2007 3:42:21 GMT 3
Qaharman and Kahraman are the same words. That is Persian and a proper name of a hero. It also means hero, not just a proper name.
Anatolain Turks are of course the same people with the Turkmens of Turkestân. We are also called Turkmens and a lot of places have the names of Turkmen tribes. Some examples are; Salur, Avshar, Teke, Saimbeyli, Tasheli, Ighdir, Qarakechili, Aqsalur, Marash, Kadirli, and so on.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Feb 15, 2007 9:21:56 GMT 3
Qaharman and Kahraman are the same words. That is Persian and a proper name of a hero. It also means hero, not just a proper name. Yes, it is Farsi, and the origins of the suffix "-man/-men" are most likely Farsi, too, and therefore, Indo-European. Compare it with similar Indo-European suffix -man in Germanic languages: police-man, fire-man, post-man, super-man.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 17, 2007 7:30:32 GMT 3
Turkmens are descendants of 9 Oghuz who were of eastern Kok Turks; not of the western. The western Oghuz, were 10 tribes (most probably Uighurs; they were commanded by 9 Oghuzes anyhow; althought they were originally the same geographical group) sent to defeat Hephtalites who escaped Turks and were living at Iranian borders. Bullnuts.
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Post by Atabeg on Apr 27, 2007 23:29:23 GMT 3
yeah his theory is kinda wack and confuses me.
since I have seen the movie hacivat ile Karagoz I allways think of Turkmens as those guys in the Movie
Muslim yet full with Tattoos and still going to kam anas(female shamans) I think it would be awsome to live in the early ottoman periode ;D
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 29, 2007 22:48:42 GMT 3
That is called Heterodoxy
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Post by nisse on May 4, 2007 1:47:30 GMT 3
what I know they belong to the western branch of turks, the turkmens arent divided into eastern and western branch, we instead they call themselfs northn turkmen , whose who live in turkmenistan and southern turkmens the turkmens in Iran, and the turkmens in afghanistan are called turkmens who lived in afghanistan,
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 7, 2007 1:52:26 GMT 3
And the Turks (Türkmens) living in Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Cyprus are the Western Türkmens
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