The Bugut Inscription

[merlkir]

Sept 25, 2011 16:10:29 GMT 3 Modu Tanhu said:

Azadan believe it or not, Wikipedia used to say that it was scientifically proven that Turkish people from Turkey only had 3% Asian DNA which only 1% is related to Turkic people. I clearly remember it was written in the section Turkish people for a very long time.

Now it says that 30% of Turkish people have Turkish DNA. Now tell me, which one is reliable? Wikipedia is untrustworthy, he isn't loyal to himself, he keeps changing information. And who says this information is even true?

Wikipedia has some accurate information but MUCH of it isn't reliable.

Do you even understand how Wikipedia works?

"Oh my, these scientists are changing what they're saying every few years! I don't know what to believe! THEY MUST BE LIARS!"

Do you understand that research is ongoing, that what we think we know evolves? That there's always new evidence to be found and re-examined?

Also Wikipedia is an absolutely massive collective effort - anyone can add to it. But it needs to be moderated. Obviously, you see it as a propaganda machine, and I don't deny it might be that in a few cases. But so many people work on it, so many of them not the "evil conspiring westerners", it's nearly impossible to push a real and cohesive agenda for a long time.

Jeez, you're super butthurt.

[Modu Tanhu]

I only said it's not reliable and you don't start to talk like that because I can start too and if I start noone can hold me you will regret it, believe me.

I did not say scientist changed it. The personal of Wikipedia is putting that info. You really should try comprehending the situation first, because you are just bombing Hiroshima, geek.

[merlkir]

Am I the only one reading this with my jaw dropped in disbelief?

Are you seriously threatening me here? Why? What Hiroshima? Geek?

Do you feel alright?

Wikipedia is worked on by thousands of people, there isn't one guy controlling it. Its policy requires citations and changes backed by sources, that's why I brought scientists up. If Wiki claims something, it's taken from a scientific paper and up to date.

[Modu Tanhu]

I am not threatening. Don't start accusing me.
I'm just telling if you insult I will start too if it's the only language you can understand.

And SO WHAT if 1000 of people controls it, it doesn't change the fact Wikipedia has unreliable information.

[Hongda Lai]

Oct 10, 2006 22:00:11 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

Here are some points I did not get:

1) The useage of βγy (Lord); this is unusal when compared with the inscriptions in Turkic because there is no such useage in those inscriptions.

2) What was Qurqapïn?

3) Who was the Chinese ruler Kwts’tt?

3) Who was the Chinese ruler Kwts’tt?

According to the Chinese historical sources:

There were two political entities(countries, dynasties) in Northern China during the reign of Taspar Kaghan（托缽可汗（572~581))
One of them is on the eastern part of Northern China called 北齊 （Northern Qi）, and the other one is on the western part of China call 北周（Northern Zhou）.

The rulers(emperors) of these two countries during the reign of Taspar Kaghan were:

北齊（Northern Qi）
高緯（Gao Wei, reign 565~577）

北周（Northern Zhou）
宇文邕（YuWen Yong, 561~578）
宇文贇（YuWen Yun,  578~580）
宇文闡（YuWen Chan, 580~581）

It seems like 北齊（Northen Qi）'s royal house name 高（modern Chinese: Gao, middle Chinese: *Kou）fits the description of of the first syllable "kw" of Kwts’tt. but his second name 緯（modern Chinese: Wei, middle Chinese: *jwei）did not. 

(My opinion:)
However, there was one royal Qi family member who was most likely fits the description of Kwts’tt and that is 高緯（Gao Wei）'s half brother 高綽（556~574, Gao Chuo, middle chinese: *Ku tɕhi̯ɑk）, who was born on the same day with his emperor brother Gao Wei to a different mother ( i.e. emperor Gao Wei's father's concubine). He was appointed as the 司徒（Administrator of Land）and later the governor of 冀州（Ji Zhou, nowadays ShanXi Province, the richest state of Qi and also bordering Taspar's Kaghante territory in the north ）by his emperor brother and remained as his brother's most trusted righthand man until his death in 574AD. 


reference:
zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AB%98%E7%B6%BD_(%E5%8C%97%E9%BD%8A)
www.eastling.org/zgycx.php  (Middle Chinese online dictionary)   
 

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Dec 25, 2019 0:59:35 GMT 3 Hongda Lai said:

3) Who was the Chinese ruler Kwts’tt?

According to the Chinese historical sources:

There were two political entities(countries, dynasties) in Northern China during the reign of Taspar Kaghan（托缽可汗（572~581))
One of them is on the eastern part of Northern China called 北齊 （Northern Qi）, and the other one is on the western part of China call 北周（Northern Zhou）.

The rulers(emperors) of these two countries during the reign of Taspar Kaghan were:

北齊（Northern Qi）
高緯（Gao Wei, reign 565~577）

北周（Northern Zhou）
宇文邕（YuWen Yong, 561~578）
宇文贇（YuWen Yun,  578~580）
宇文闡（YuWen Chan, 580~581）

It seems like 北齊（Northen Qi）'s royal house name 高（modern Chinese: Gao, middle Chinese: *Kou）fits the description of of the first syllable "kw" of Kwts’tt. but his second name 緯（modern Chinese: Wei, middle Chinese: *jwei）did not. 

(My opinion:)
However, there was one royal Qi family member who was most likely fits the description of Kwts’tt and that is 高緯（Gao Wei）'s half brother 高綽（556~574, Gao Chuo, middle chinese: *Ku tɕhi̯ɑk）, who was born on the same day with his emperor brother Gao Wei to a different mother ( i.e. emperor Gao Wei's father's concubine). He was appointed as the 司徒（Administrator of Land）and later the governor of 冀州（Ji Zhou, nowadays ShanXi Province, the richest state of Qi and also bordering Taspar's Kaghante territory in the north ）by his emperor brother and remained as his brother's most trusted righthand man until his death in 574AD. 


reference:
zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AB%98%E7%B6%BD_(%E5%8C%97%E9%BD%8A)
www.eastling.org/zgycx.php  (Middle Chinese online dictionary)   
 

Hi Hongda Lai, thank you for your contribution. My original post in the thread was made years ago, based on Sergej G. Kljaštornyj and Vladimir A. Livšic's reading. However, in 1999 Yutaka Yoshida published a new reading and translation that greatly differs from Kljaštornyj and Livšic's edition. The inscription's first line read by Kljaštornyj-Livšic as (‘mwh?) […] (pt)s’kh ‘ws’t δ’r’nt tr’wkt c(yn)st’n kwt(s)’tt ‘γšywn’k and translated by them as "This stele was erected by the Turks (under) Kwts’tt the ruler of China" is rty (m)[wn']k nwm (sn)k' 'wst't δ'r-'nt tr-'wkt '(')šy-n's kwtr'tt 'xšy-wn'k according to Yoshida, which is translated by him into English as "Kings of the Turkish Ashinas tribe have established [this] stone of law when...". So, according to Yoshida there is no mention of China here. However, the inscription has worn out greatly and its rubbings are not very clear either, so there are some objections to Yoshida's reading and translation of the inscription as well.