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Post by kenmirzz on Jan 8, 2010 4:07:41 GMT 3
Mr Ihsan Qagan, sorry for reviving this old thread.
I read in one Turkish book translated into English(Endless Bliss II) published by Hakikat Kitabevi, Istanbul, Turkey about Alevi Turks. They said another name for this group is Bektashi right? Then they proceed to narrate some anecdotes relating to the Alevi Turks in Salonika because previously the governor there namely Mustafa Pasha was Alevi.
Then they described something about the remnants of Safavid's army that were labeled as "Red Turban Army" that later turn into Alevi sect.
Is this true?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 9, 2010 11:57:53 GMT 3
Mr. Kenmirzz, please don't read such Islamist BS, they are pure liers who love insulting Atatürk in every possible way.
The Bektaşi Order are a branch of them, not another name of the Alevis.
I haven't seen any evidences for the Aleviness of Atatürk.
But it is true that there are many Bektaşi anecdotes in Turkey, but they are usually in the forms of mocking the strict Sunni Islamists.
This is partially true. The Turkmens revolted against Ottoman administration in the early 16th century with the support of the Safavids. The Ottoman elite wore white headgear since the time of Orkhan Beg according to Ottoman history tradition, but these Turkmens wore red headgears (according to Ottoman chronicles such as Aşıkpaşazade, originally both the rulers and people of the Turkmen principalities in post-Seljuk Anatolia wore red, but Orkhan's dignitaries introduced white to distinguish the Ottomans from other Anatolian Turks). The main reasons behind this "Kızılbaş (Redhead)" Rebellion was economic and political, because of most of them were nomads who did not want to live under Ottoman administration which was emposing heavy animal taxes on the nomads so that the nomads would give up their nomadic lifestyle, settle down and become tamed subjects of the sultans. The Shiite Safavids in Iran used this and sent their missionaries (called "Dai") among these Turks, who "converted" to Shiism but in reality, these nomadic Turks were far from the established religious doctrines of sedentary Sunnis and Shiites alike. Sultan Selim I strictly and fiercely put down this rebellion and most of these Redheads fled to Iran, but a short time later they also rebelled against Safavid administration and most of them returned back to Anatolia. The useage of the term "Alevi" for these "Redheads" is quite modern (20th century); their historical name was "Kızılbaş", but the Sunnis used (and still use) it in a deragotary way so the Alevis finally gave up using the term for themselves, and today regard it as an insult.
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Post by kenmirzz on Jan 11, 2010 4:14:56 GMT 3
My apology Mr Ihsan Qagan. I read that a long time ago when I was fascinated with the religion and sectarian differences among Muslims. I think they were referring to another Mustafa Bey(Mustafa Bey, the Chief Secretary of the Ministry of the province of Salonica), not the great Mustafa Kemal Attaturk.
I see. Thank you.
I think so too. Here I reproduce quotations from that book:
The fathers of Baktashi hear confessions, like priests. When a person does something which is considered a sin, he comes before the father. The father pulls his ear and then forgives him. If the person's sin is very grave, he begs him, saying, "Get what you like and see to your way." And the father tells him to sacrifice an animal for the Forties or to make a vow for the Three Hundreds. Then, taking a few liras from him, he forgives him. If a Baktashi woman has sexual intercourse with a non-Baktashi man, she goes to the father and says, "A dog has jumped over me." By the father taking money from her, she gets forgiven. Each father has a different way. One night, in a meeting, a woman came before the father and bowed her head. The father told her to untie the buqaghi. Then the father said to whomever he liked of the men, "Stand up and fasten this sister to the log."
I am unsure about how true the anecdotes above. I am well aware of the biasness displayed by Islamists and their publications. They apparently like to put down on other Non-Sunnis in such disgraceful way to cover up their own atrocities and lies.
Thank you Mr Ihsan. That's explain a lot of things.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 1:24:03 GMT 3
Let me tell you about the real Alevism. Much of my friends are Alevis and I have some contact with Alevi culture. Alevis are not muslims. They believe the Quran has been changed by the sunni Yezit. But the problem is, they see Yezit as a sunni. And because he did bad things to Ali (he was also a sunni) and his family, there has been a split up: Alevis; those who follow Ali and sunni's; those who are from the same school of sunni as Yezit. They don't fast during the holy month Ramadan, they fast only 12 days during Muharrem because of what happened at Kerbela. Alevis reject mosques and they do their worship in Alevi-exlusive Cemevi's. Their rituals are done with Semah's, Alevi dances, wile someone plays a baglama; the national Turkish instrument who is a decendant of the Kopuz. Here is a semah: www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDYhq8vhu6cThey also believe that Ali should have been the first Caliph instead of Abu Bakr, Omar and Osman. They hate them very much because they think they conspirated against Ali, which of course is not true. You can't see ONE Alevi with the name Ebubekir, Osman or Ömer. The original Alevis are the Kizilbas, a Turkmen Alevi horde. The big differences between Shia and Alevi: - Shia fast during Ramadan, Alevis do not (only during Muharrem, 12 days) - Shia pray like sunni in Shia mosques, Alevis don't pray and they do rituals in Cemevi's - Shia are against alcohol like any other Sunni while Alevis drink Raki in their Cemevi - Shia pray like Sunni fars and sunnet, altough the percentage of praying sunnet is much lower than sunnis, while Alevi's do rituals in Cemevi's with music, their holy instrument is the baglama The Alevis are extremely centered around Ali unlike the sunnis, which is centered around God and Mohammed. There are also atheistic Alevis who still love Ali and act like any other Alevi. They also believe in Mohammed but after Ali. But they still accept Mohammed as the holy last prophet of Islam. Much of the Ashiqs, Ozans or baglama-players are Alevi. They also have their own sort of playing style, which is very beautiful. Here are some examples of Alevi Türküs: www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0_lPn3wOiUwww.youtube.com/watch?v=QPIxETFSUlQwww.youtube.com/watch?v=J2ExIVABlhkwww.youtube.com/watch?v=pI3gW9-Az1Mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=vD931jpLfPQwww.youtube.com/watch?v=ssIvdW-vUJUThese are just normal Türküs: www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3sMAXRcsnMwww.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKN2yDQLnYwww.youtube.com/watch?v=T9CPnfoS5VYwww.youtube.com/watch?v=MyEpQx9p9u8Sunni intention is Bismillah, meaning In the name of God, while Alevi's say Bismishah Allah Allah, meaning In the name of the Shah (ruler Ali) God God. Baglama has NOTHING to do with Alevis. When Alevis were formed they began expressing their emotions and feelings singing with a baglama. As years passed the baglama became an element of Alevism thats why much Alevis play a baglama now. BTW, I myself can play also the baglama and my style is also the Alevi style but I am not an Alevi . My teacher who has been teaching me for more then 5 years is an Alevi Zaza himself. But my interest for Alevi style music much earlier I hope this will help.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 19, 2011 21:36:15 GMT 3
Actually the Alevis don't have an established religious doctrine, so their beliefs vary from family to family. There are Alevis that indeed go to mosques to pray but they are small in number I guess. And while most of the Alevis believe that Ali was the rightful caliph after Muhammad, but there are some Alevis that believe that Ali was the actual prophet and the angel that brought the Quran verses mistook Muhammad for Ali (yes, I heard this from some Alevis). And there are even some Alevis that consider Ali as the God, or a personification of it.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 21:48:05 GMT 3
Yes indeed, the first Shia Arabs, when Ali still lived said to Ali: "Yaa Ali, you are our prophet, you are or God, we pray to you".
There are also, like you said Ihsan, Alevis who go to the mosque. They are the 'soft-Alevis' who are just sunni but culturally are Alevi. There are many varieties of Alevis.
Ali told several times he is just a believer like prophet Muhammed, Abu Bakr, Osman or Omar and that it is very wrong to consider him a God or prophet but they kept on insisting "You are our God!". Ali felt hopeless against them and he just left them alone.
Alevism is also a belief with Shamanistic elements, this is due the facts that the first muslim Turks, who were mostly Alevi, Turkified the Shia Islam branch.
Alevism is actually very controversial. But culturally I like Alevism very much.
I hope we are not breaking any rules by talking about Alevism, Ihsan? (religion)
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 19, 2011 21:54:04 GMT 3
No no, of course not, we are free to talk about Alevis here. By the way, speaking of them, the greatest expert on Alevism, Ahmet Yaşar Ocak (a professor from our department) has a very nice book entitled "Alevî-Bektaşî İnançlarının İslâm Öncesi Temelleri" (Pre-Islamic Fundamentals of Alevi-Bektashi Beliefs) where he has categorised all non-Islamic beliefs and motiffs seen among the Alevis: yunus.hacettepe.edu.tr/~ocak/alevibektasi.htm
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 22:14:16 GMT 3
Oh thanks, and here I was trying to find a good book about that subject, thanks It's also confusing that people relate Sufism with Alevism. Yet the only tie I can see is that both have the same way of thinking. I thought Sufis were sunni spiritual people and that Sufism is a mystical approach of Islam. The Ottoman Jannisaries, who were children of non-Turkic people, were Bektashi, what could be the possible reason they were Bektashi? The Alevi's hate the Ottomans, yet the Jannisaries, under Ottoman command took orders from the Ottoman authority? Then the Alevi-Bektashi Jannisaries were the ones that massacred the Turkmen Alevis?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 20, 2011 19:28:56 GMT 3
That is because when the Ottoman Principality was founded in the late 13th-early 14th centuries, the Ottoman Dynasty and most of their population were still not so adapted to the established orthodox Sunni version of Islam, while they practiced a more heterodox version of it. That's why early Ottoman rulers payed much attention and gave much importance to heterodox sects such as those of the Bektashis, or to that of Geyikli Baba. It was in the 15th-16th centuries when Ottoman sultans started becoming more orthodox, but the Bektashi tradition among the Janissary Corps continued well into the 1820s when the corps was finally abolished.
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Modu Tanhu
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 21, 2011 2:06:09 GMT 3
The janissaries were still independent. They were independent enough to even stand up against the Ottoman authority and even the absolute monarch, the sultan! Genç Osman was strangled to death when he wanted to do some reforms in disadvantage of the janissaries. They took him to the Yedizindan kuleleri and strangled him because Ottoman dynasty blood was considered holy. My family also were Alevi Turkmens in the past, like 3 generations ago but I am Sunni. (just saying )
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2011 15:30:33 GMT 3
Dear Ihsan Erkoc, Ilkhanate rulers actually did accepted Shia faith, but not in Iran, in Azerbaijan. Ilhanate capital was in Tabriz and Maragha, lands of Azerbaijan. This actually paved the way for founding of Safavids in Azerbaijan, whom conqured Iran and made it Shia. While people think Azeri Turks are shia because of Persians, it is totally the opposite.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 18, 2011 22:27:19 GMT 3
True, Iran became a dominantly Shiite land due to the establishment of the Safavid Empire.
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Post by Atabeg on Nov 4, 2011 15:16:36 GMT 3
The Ottomans cause allot of conflict when they suddenly converted to hyper orthodox hanafi sunni Islam. Guess the same happend in Europe with christianity. Fun fact is that the first spiritual leader of The Ottomans is Seikh Edabali who is a student of the student of the student of Khodja Ahmed Yasavi which is a Sufi brotherhood or sect. But as the counselor of Shah Ismail said to him you can't govern a state like a Brotherhood. It is funny that the Ottomans and the safavis "converted" from a sect to a more orthodox form of Islam. The only explanation is a growing empire.
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