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Post by asiaticus on Aug 25, 2006 0:51:44 GMT 3
The tomb of the daughter of the eastern Qapghan qaghan informs us that he was called' the qaghan of the Thirty-tribes' ; according the turkish inscriptions, the Qapghan qaghan confederation was composed of Turkish and Oghuz tribes. In the beginning of Qapghan rule, nine tribes paid homage to the new qaghan and nine tribes remind us of the Toquz Oghuz or Nine-Oghuz; after this event, other twelve tribes paid homage and these must be Turkish tribes. K. Czegledy (' On the Numerical Composition of the Ancient Turkish Tribal Confederations' , Acta Orientalia Hung. XXV, 1972, p.275-281, p.276) says: ' The fact, however, that the total number of tribes was 30, necessitates the conclusion that the name Nine tribes must somehow denote 18 Oghuz tribes..." . According Czegely because the leading tribe of the Toquz Oghuz were the Uyghur who, for their account, were divided in 9 sub-tribes, this brings to a total of 17 Toquz Oghuz, to wihom was addes another tribe of non-Oghuz origin (total: 18 tribes) . So the designations On-Uyghur and Toquz Oghuz denoted the same group of tribes. From this we understand that the true Turkis group was composed from 12 tribes.
Loriano Belluomini, Italy
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Post by asiaticus on Aug 25, 2006 8:54:34 GMT 3
After writing rhis post, I remembered of another paper on the subject. Mihaly Dobrovits, The Thirty Tribes of the Turks, always in Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae,vol. 57 / 3, 2004,257-262 proposes a different way from Czegledy. In his opinion the number Thirty tribes refersto: toquz Oghuz (Nine Oghuz) and 12 tribes to proper Turks (Oriental Turks) ; the remaining 10 tribes would be the western Turks or Onoq. Total 30 Turks . Dobrovits cites from the chinese Tanghuiyao the Turkic tribes living to the North and to the south of Gobi desert. To the North: (Chinese names) Ashina, Helu, Ashide, Da (Great) Ashide, Bayan Ashide (total 5). To the South: Enjie (Sijie) , Fuliyu, Qibi, Xijie, Huxie, Nula (Total 6) . The total amount is 11. The twelfth tribes would be the clan Ashina that, as the ruling clan, created a own tamga different from the tamga of the Ashina tribe; so the ruling clan woul constitute the twelfth tribe.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 25, 2006 19:37:47 GMT 3
Oh my God, thank you a lot! Do you know where exactly these names are referred in the Tanghuiyao?
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Post by asiaticus on Aug 25, 2006 21:22:31 GMT 3
I'm sorry. Unfortunately, while I have the dynastic Histories, I have not Tanghuiyao. On the paper of wich I wrote there is no reference. Loriano Belluomini, Italy
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 26, 2006 21:17:42 GMT 3
Thank you asiaticus.
I shall have a look at that source as soon as my Chinese will start improving after this September (when my Chinese course will start).
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 27, 2006 22:43:32 GMT 3
Ok, so here is an almost-complete list from Cen Zhongmian's á¯ÖÙÃã Tujue Jishi Í»Øʼ¯Ê·, Beijing: Zhonghua Shuju, II, 1958 edition, pages 1070-1072 (these were relocated in China by the Tang Dynasty after 630):
Ashina (A-shih-na) °¢Ê·ÄÇ Ashide (A-shih-te) °¢Ê·µÂ Sheli Tuli (She-li T'u-li) ÉáÀûÍÂÀû Chuo (Chuo) ¾b A tribe (name unknown) relocated in Sibizhou (Ssu-pi-chou) ˼±ÙÖÝ Nulai (Nu-lai) Å«Àµ Sunung (Su-nung) ÌKÞr Zhishi (Chih-shih) ˆÌʧ Bayan Ashide (Pa-yen A-shih-te) °ÎÑÓ°¢Ê·µÂ Helu (Ho-lu) ÙRô” Qaghan's tribe Qarluqs (these have three tribes among themselves; they are more correctly a separate people carrying the name "Turk") Yusheshi (Y¨¹-she-shih) ÓôÉäÊ© Duodi Yishi (Tuo-ti Yi-shih) ¶àµØˇʧ Beishi (Pei-shih) ±°Ê§ A tribe (name unknown) relocated in Qil¨¹ezhou (Ch'i-l¨¹eh-chou) ß³ÂÔÖÝ
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Post by aca on Sept 28, 2006 13:04:17 GMT 3
Thank you very much for this. By the way, why I can't see Chinese characters properly
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 28, 2006 20:22:24 GMT 3
You are welcome Select Simplified Chinese (GB18030) as your language code
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 29, 2006 20:52:00 GMT 3
I found a very interesting information while reading one of F. Grenard's article translated by Osman Turan in 1939-1940. The original article in French was published in the 1900 edition of Journal Asiatique and it was later translated into Turkish with the name Satuk Bugra Han Menkýbesi ve Tarihi ("The Legend of Satuq Bughra Khan and It's History"). The Turkish translation was published in the severals editions of the Ülkü magazine in the years 1939 and 1940.
In the Murûju'z-Zahab of Ibn Khurdhadbih (Barbier-Meynard translation, I, 288-289), it is written that the rulers of the Qarluq Turks claimed descendency from the family of the Khans of Khans whereas Afrâsyâb (the famous ancient legendary ruler of Tûrân and Shâne ﺷﺎﻨﻪ are listed as some of the members of this family. Look at how Shâne ﺷﺎﻨﻪ and Ashina looks alike!
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Post by Boorchi Noyan on Oct 29, 2006 23:51:55 GMT 3
hmmm really interesting. So Alp Er Toña was from which family of those ten?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 30, 2006 1:20:21 GMT 3
He says that both Afrâsyâb (Alp Är Toña) and Shâne belonged to the Turkish family of Khans of Khans. He mistakenly gives the name Shâne as one of the rulers of the Turkic Imperial Family.
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Post by Temüjin on Oct 30, 2006 1:49:10 GMT 3
who is this Afrasyab?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 30, 2006 2:02:54 GMT 3
The legendary ruler of Ancient Tûrân, enemy of Irân, ancestor of the Turkic Imperial Family. At least this is what the legends about him tell us. He is known in Iranian literature as Afrâsyâb (check Firdavsî's Shahnâma [Book of King]), but Medieval Turks called him Alp Är Toña (Alp = Hero, Är = Male/Warrior, Toña = Panther/Tiger). The Qarakhanid ruling family claimed descendency from him.
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Post by Boorchi Noyan on Oct 30, 2006 23:02:25 GMT 3
I think Seljuks also claimed descendency from him...
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 31, 2006 0:44:16 GMT 3
No, the Säljûqid (Seljuk) imperial family was well aware of it's roots, going back to a tent-maker. One of Duqaq's ancestors was a Türkmen who made out his living by making the central poles of Turkic tents. Note that the Säljûqids also did not use the titles Khan and Khaqan (as far as I know), which were titles restricted only to the Qarakhanid imperial family who was caliming ancestry from Alp Är Toña. The Säljûqid rulers used titles like Bäg, Yabghu and Sultân.
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