Turkic Golden Wolf banner

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

I think Bahaeddin Ögel published these pictures in his two-volumed book Türk Mitolojisi ("Turkic Mythology"). Too bad I don't have them with me here in Austria

[ceyhun82]

Grey wolf= Asena -
Asena = Bozkurt-
Bozkurt = Gök börü.
If you know another terms for this Plz put here.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

A-shi-na 阿史那 was not the name of the "grey wolf", it was the name of the imperial tribe that ruled over the Gokturk Empire. We don't know what it means, neither the original form because the only form of this name we know for now is from Chinese sources. But yes, "Kök Böri" in Old Turkic is "Bozkurt" in Modern Turkish, meaning "Grey Wolf".

[Temüjin]

i've by chance found this standard used by Mughals, it has (fish)-scales but it also has a feline/canine like head:

www.asianart.com/asianartgallery/d5677.html

chalklands.wordpress.com/2009/07/26/the-bengal-army/

also appears to have had a windsock behind the head, very much like examples known from antiquity.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Oh this is awesome How interesting that the "dragon" of ancient Scythians-Sarmatians-Parthians became the "wolf" of Gokturks-Uyghurs which seems to have become the "fish" of Baburids ;D

[Temüjin]

i actually have a new theory about that, but i need to gather more evidence before i'll present it.

[hjernespiser]

I don't know how they identify that thing as a fish. The nose, eyes, teeth, and horn/fin-like appendages do not look very fish-like at all.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

i actually have a new theory about that, but i need to gather more evidence before i'll present it.

Looking forward to it

I don't know how they identify that thing as a fish. The nose, eyes, teeth, and horn/fin-like appendages do not look very fish-like at all.

Indeed, I would have identified as a dragon.

[Temüjin]

Dec 4, 2012 0:00:31 GMT 3 hjernespiser said:

I don't know how they identify that thing as a fish. The nose, eyes, teeth, and horn/fin-like appendages do not look very fish-like at all.

exactly!


well actually i haven't quite explored all ends yet and had some dead ends so far, but here's what i think: it's neither a wolf/ dog, nor a "scaled" animal like fish or reptile but a Simurgh:

"This animal has the head of a dog, the wings and—in most examples—the tail of a peathingy. It has precursors in Scythian art of a millennium earlier, one example of which shows a striking resemblance to the Sasanian representation (Schmidt, fig. 2); it cannot be established what they were called nor can a historical connection be made, because composite animals of similar type are found in the Near East, Central Asia, and China. "

"The Sēnmurw is very prominent on the coinage of the Hephthalites in the seventh and eighth centuries C.E. It is distinguished from the standard Sasanian form by having rather a thingy’s than a peathingy’s tail and also frequently showing reptilian features, which are rare in the Sasanian form. "

from: www.iranicaonline.org/articles/simorg

i researched the topci again when i was trying to analyze what the Mughal standard REALLY is, because we all know it's not a fish... (pic of a real mughal fish-standards: www.twcenter.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=2645&pictureid=27222 and www.twcenter.net/forums/picture.php?s=be2b695b7c242cd1f589c4df37faa1c8&albumid=2645&pictureid=27238)

i first got the idea when i tried to identify the depictions of what seem to be draco standards on early medieval art of britain and france:


bayeux tapestry


14th century manuscript

all those are called wyvern in english, which is identified thus: 'winged two-footed dragon' (wiki).

the latter in particular looks like a 'textbook' depiction of a Simurgh as seen in Sassanian art, right down to the 'beart/sideburns':





(in medieval iranian manuscripts the simurgh is mostly depcited as a fancy bird, but we can more or less ignore that because of the discontinuity of iranian culture by the muslim conquest.)

however, there are still some major issues:

- how popular was the Simurgh really with Steppe people in general? we only know of 'draco' standards carried by Sarmatians and Parthians, what about scythians, sassanians and later tribes (which people carried the golden wolf-head banner into battle), was the mughal "fish" standard a continuation, revivale or purely coincidental design?

- the 'wyvern' design of dracos have 'pigtails' as opposed to the peathingy-tail of the simurgh.

- despite the encyclopaedia iranica article, i was unable to find any actual depcitions of the simurgh in scythian art, only what i would clearly identify as griffins, nor did i find the mentioned simurghs on hephtalite coins.

- other than the early medieval depcitions from france/britain, ancient dracos don't appear to have had two 'legs' nor wings. however, dracos DO usually have what appears to be a canine head as well as what appears to be fish/reptilian scales but might as well be feathers in fact. (pic of Tiamat, left: n.nshrine.com/2078/iconurl.jpg )

[Temüjin]

note that auto-censor replaced all 'c.ock's with 'thingy'

[Ardavarz]

There was such theory that the calendar cycle of the 12 animals could have been derived from some ancient totems given the 12(24)-partite clan system of Xiongnu and Oghuz tribes in Central Asia. At least 2/3 of the animals from the calendar cycle are found as totems.

Fish was often a substitute for the Dragon in the Turkic calendar cycles, so such transformation seems probable, but the wolf is usually put instead of the Tiger.

About Simorgh - indeed I think that the famous Scythian "gryphon" was most probably very similar if not identical mythological figure just misinterpreted so by the Greeks. According to the ancient sources the gryphons lived at the end of the world guarding some mythical moutnains of gold which were perhaps the same as the Rhipean Mountains, while Simorgh was also said to live on the mythical world mountain Kāf. In the East Slavic mythology there was a similar creature called Semargl: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simargl. Also in the Proto-Bulgarian version of the 12 animal calendar cycle the first year was called Somor and I have wondered whether this could be a distortion of "Simorgh" (but still the explanation of "somor" as "samur" - "sable" seems more plausible so far).

Dec 4, 2012 22:42:49 GMT 3 Temüjin said:

note that auto-censor replaced all 'c.ock's with 'thingy'

That's very funny indeed! Reminds me of George Carlin's "seven words you cannot say on TV" (www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Nrp7cj_tM). It seems you cannot write them in the Internet too ;D

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Hmmm interesting

[Temüjin]

actually the griffin in scythin art looks different from the simurgh in some respects, notably it has an eagle's head and the body of a lion (tail, four legs instead of two). it must have also been a distinct animal in persian:

[Temüjin]

i just rediscovered this. must be added to the thread: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifals

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Hmm now things get even more interesting.