Činggis Qaγan vs Wanyan Aguda

[boleslawi]

Yuan Taizu Činggis Qaγan (成吉思汗) vs Jin Taizu Wanyan Aguda （完颜阿骨打）.

This is a comparison that is inspired by the following quote from Dr.Christopher Atwood:

Nurhaci and Cinggis: a Comparative study of imperial foundings on the Outer Frontier

My thought immediately comes up as followed: If you can compare Činggis Qaγan with Nuharci, could you then compare him with Wanyan Aguda. Both are known to be great state builders, excellent commanders, and inspiring leadership in their own rights. Both have achieved massive military success against their much more powerful foes. In the case of Činggis Qaγan, it is mainly the Jin dynasty, while in the case of Wanyan Aguda, it is the Liao dynasty. Both rebelled against their overlords supposedly due to the unfair treatment of their overlord.

Yet Činggis Qaγan achieved much more than Wanyan Aguda. By the time he passed away, his empire was much larger than the Jin dynasty. However, it seems that Wanyan Aguda conquered both Liao and northern territory of Song dynasty within only 10 years. Činggis Qaγan started out with roughly 100,000 warriors, all horsemen, while Wanyan Aguda only had initially 2500 men.

It is difficult to compare them, to say who is greater than whom. I only wish to draw a parallel between Činggis Qaγan and Wanyan Aguda.

Another side question is that how do you reconstruct Wanyan Aguda into Manchu language? Is Nuzhen language similar to Manchu?

Thank you for reading!

[Temüjin]

Apr 4, 2020 4:45:03 GMT 3 boleslawi said:

Činggis Qaγan started out with roughly 100,000 warriors, all horsemen, while Wanyan Aguda only had initially 2500 men.

according to the Secret History, Chinggis Qaan started out with nothing. only by the time he unified the tribes and was declared Qaan of the Mongols in 1206, he had over 100.000 mounted warriors.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Chinggis Khan's main difference from Wanyan Aguda was that before starting to conquer sedentary regions, he achieved the subjugation and unification of all the steppe peoples in Mongolia. Perhaps it would be more proper to compare Wanyan Aguda with Abaoji, founder of the Khitan Empire (as a sidenote, Abaoji also managed to defeat and subjugate some of the tribes in Mongolia).

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

And yes, Jurchen (Nuzhen) language is just an older version of Manchu.

[boleslawi]

What is the main difference between the Jurchen and the Mongol tribes?

I know that their languages are related due to both belonging to the same Tungusic language family. Jurchen people led a more sedentary lifestyle, while Mongol people were nomadic. Is there a study that details the economy of Jurchen people? I still cannot have a clear image in my mind about their lifestyle. It seems that they lived in fortified village. They also seemed to practice agriculture, but the weather in Northern Manchuria must be very cold, thus leaving little to grow.

I have translated the Mengda Beilu into Vietnamese, and in it I've read that there were myriads of Jurchens who surrendered to and served Cingis Khan, some even reached prominent positions within the newfound administrative system of the Mongols.

hinggis Khan's main difference from Wanyan Aguda was that before starting to conquer sedentary regions, he achieved the subjugation and unification of all the steppe peoples in Mongolia. Perhaps it would be more proper to compare Wanyan Aguda with Abaoji, founder of the Khitan Empire (as a sidenote, Abaoji also managed to defeat and subjugate some of the tribes in Mongolia).

I am curious about this. I know that during the early years of Jin Empire, the Jurchens carried out many military campaigns against the Mongol tribes. But how could they distinguish themselves from one another. My feeling is that during those days, the difference between one tribe and another must be much more fluid. They didn't tend to identify themselves according to certain geographic features like we do today. Instead, any tribe that didn't submit must taste the blade of the sword. If I am correct, this also means that any Jurchen tribe that didn't submit to the authority of Wanyan Aguda would also be put down as well.

Do they even have a separate identity, like we the Jurchens, you the Mongols. It seems that this was the case in the 17th century, otherwise, you wouldn't have a separate administrative system during the Qing dynasty.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

The Jurchens and Mongols were different peoples because the Jurchens were Tungusic while the Mongols were Mongolic. The hypothetical Altaic language family (whose existence is debated among linguists) is thought to be formed from three main branches: Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic. The Dong Hu, Wuhuan, Särbi (Xianbei), Khitan, Qai (Tatabï, Xi/Kumo Xi), Shirvi (Shiwei), Oirad, Buriad and Mongol peoples all spoke Mongolic languages, while Tungusic speakers were Sushen, Malgal/Mukri (Mohe), Jurchens, the later Manchus and others. All these peoples did differentiate each other.