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Post by massaget on Nov 26, 2012 22:00:24 GMT 3
Ihsan : I know, thats one theory. I have two problems with it.
It doesnt explain why would magyars add the -ar suffix to their own name if they were finnougrians. We dont use the -ar suffix in our language. I mean, it doesnt mean anything at all in hungarian, only in türkic languages. Its our self name, I think we should at least understand what magyar means if this names come from the same language as we speak now.
The other and maybe more important thing is, Constantin byzantine emperor writes in DAI that the 7 tribe of turks (hungarians) didnt have a common ruler before Almos. They were not one tribe before that. This matches with the sources, none of them calls us magyars, its probably a distorted version of the tribal name megyer, wich was the leading tribe of Arpad. Even in the carpathian basin the word Magyar has no sign to be spread earlier than the 13th century.
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 26, 2012 23:24:18 GMT 3
"why would magyars add the -ar suffix to their own name if they were finnougrians"
Why not? Why do you say you're Hungarian to English speakers?
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Post by massaget on Nov 27, 2012 15:08:54 GMT 3
We are talking about self name here. We dont understand our own name, neither magy, nor -ar doesnt mean anything. While we understand the name of the szekelys (settled) who were the locals. The magyars didnt treat the szekely as their relatives, they removed them from their location and moved them to transylvania. Even in the 16th century the szeklers used to fight against the magyars. The sources differentiate the szeklers from the magyars, they call the magyars the real magyars, while the szeklers as not real magyars.
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Post by ancalimon on Nov 27, 2012 16:13:15 GMT 3
We are talking about self name here. We dont understand our own name, neither magy, nor -ar doesnt mean anything. While we understand the name of the szekelys (settled) who were the locals. The magyars didnt treat the szekely as their relatives, they removed them from their location and moved them to transylvania. Even in the 16th century the szeklers used to fight against the magyars. The sources differentiate the szeklers from the magyars, they call the magyars the real magyars, while the szeklers as not real magyars. I have one question regarding this. Did the clergy meddled with the alphabet and religion and language of Hungarians?
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 27, 2012 19:49:32 GMT 3
massaget,
It's only an assumption that you need to understand the self-name. Why would Finno-Ugrian speakers _not_ add a foreign suffix to their name? Language has a clarity requirement. A listener has a need to understand what is being said and a speaker has a need to be understood by the listener. That's why you tell English-speakers that you are Hungarian because English-speakers do not normally know the word Magyar, not to mention the use of "Hungo" type names within Hungary (Hungaroring).
The need to understand the self-name is not a requirement nor unique. Americans, Russians, French, not to mention the billions of people through the ages who were given foreign personal names, are further examples. It is acceptable that a people who lived around others who called them Magy Er (Magy People, like Tuva kizhi) or Magy-Er (combo of Magy and Er tribes, like Avar-Hun/Varhon) would adopt that as a self-name given enough time. And it isn't inconceivable that they wanted to be distinct from the other tribes with Magy in their name so that others would not confuse them.
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 27, 2012 19:52:03 GMT 3
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Post by massaget on Nov 28, 2012 23:51:29 GMT 3
ancalimon : what do you mean exactly by meddling with the religion, etc ?
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Post by ancalimon on Nov 28, 2012 23:57:51 GMT 3
ancalimon : what do you mean exactly by meddling with the religion, etc ? Deciding who is going to speak what kind of language using which alphabet and belong to which religion. Burning believers of other religions calling them "pagans" (while those people most probably believed in a single unseen infinite God which is not related with any human at all), collecting their children to turn them into their fanatical soldiers... And things like these.
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Post by massaget on Nov 29, 2012 0:58:22 GMT 3
Well, in Hungary, it was the king who started to spread christianity, it was so weak at the beginning, that it had to spread by force. St. Stephen, who is the first king of Hungary, he decided to follow christianity instead of any other religion, his father (Geza, also called Gyeüca in the sources) was pagan, Stephen ruled from 1000 AD. Later on byzantine type christianity also started to spread. Muslim, Jewish and pagan religions also existed from the very beginning, they were chased more or less during the centuries. Because of the various religions existed in hungary, it was one of the first countries in the world to declare religious freedom in the 16th century.
Even the ottomans didnt chase the christians that much in Hungary, also islam was not spread among the population by force. I think cultural diversity always had a positive side effect on this country, everyone could live peacefully side by side, except some harsh counter examples.
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