|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 15, 2012 11:13:48 GMT 3
I disagree. This "the Turks were massacred and forcibly Islamized by the Umayyads" theory was made up by Erdoğan Aydın, a Marxist non-historian, who had no idea about either Central Asian history nor Islamic-Arabic historiography. Most of those "Turks" massacred by the Umayyads (those atrocities were real by the way, described in detail in Islamic chronicles) were Soghdians and other Transoxianian-Khorasanian Iranic-speaking peoples and before the Mongol period, the Turks did not form a majority in Transoxianian cities; while these settlements had small numbers of Turkic settlers (mostly soldiers and administrators, plus some artizans), most of the dwellers were Iranic. It was only after the Mongol invasion of the 1220s that the Turks started to become dominant in population in Transoxianian cities (note that some of the Turkestani city-states and kingdoms already had Turkic rulers as early as the 6th-7th centuries). While it is true that the Umayyads had bitter fights with Turkic peoples, most notably the Türgish and Khazars, they were not able to hold the lands beyond the Jaxartes and Caucasian mountains (they did penetrate into there but had to withdraw). Because Transoxiana was under Turkic rule when the Arabs arrived in Turkestan, all the Iranic natives were called "Turks" by the Arabs.
Indeed. The lands of Magyars was "Tourkia" for the Byzantines, the Magyars were called "Tourkoi" and even the Szentkorona has the title "Kralēs Tourkias" written for Géza. It was because the Turkic peoples were dominant in the Eurasian steppes at that time (the Gokturks and Khazars, primarily) and because the pre-Christian nomadic Magyars looked like the same with the Turkic peoples in the eyes of the Byzantines, the Magyars were also named "Turks".
|
|
|
Post by massaget on Nov 15, 2012 21:41:19 GMT 3
Ihsan : they not also looked like Turks, but also their personal names were all Türk, there titles were Türk, the cities they've founded had Türkish names. The belts of Magyar warriors has runic scripts, and they are unable to read in hungarian. they are all türkic. Who we call Géza today his original name were Gyeücsa wich is a türkish title with hungarian characters. To be honest absolutely nothing proves that they would spoke hungarian. Id like the idea, but I cant list much facts to support it.
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 15, 2012 21:58:29 GMT 3
Of course they were under heavy Turkic influence. Even some of the tribal names of Magyars were Turkic.
|
|
|
Post by massaget on Nov 15, 2012 23:49:41 GMT 3
Yeah. maybe all of them.
|
|
|
Post by hjernespiser on Nov 16, 2012 6:04:24 GMT 3
|
|
|
Post by hjernespiser on Nov 16, 2012 6:06:25 GMT 3
"To be honest absolutely nothing proves that they would spoke hungarian."
I don' t know about that. There's the old names with Turkic origin but Hungarian suffix, like Arpad, Borsod, etc.
|
|
|
Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 16, 2012 11:42:55 GMT 3
Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by massaget on Nov 16, 2012 14:43:24 GMT 3
hjernespiser : the foundation of borsod if one of the main facts for those who claim magyar's türk origin. Its written in Anonymous' Gesta Hungarorum. Anonymous makes it clear that Bonger's son Bors, built a castle on the banks of river Boldva, wich is called Bors-od by the locals ! not by the incoming Magyars !
|
|
|
Post by hjernespiser on Nov 16, 2012 18:46:19 GMT 3
Yes, Anonymous' Gesta is full of folk etymologies for place names. I'm not surprised that ASSes would reject scientifically based etymologies for those written by an untrained armchair philologist from 1000 years ago.
|
|
|
Post by massaget on Nov 16, 2012 19:13:02 GMT 3
Anonymous states early in his work that he wont write the folk tales and legends. Maybe what we consider as a folk tale in his work it seems a folk tale only if we suppose that magyars carried our language.
|
|
|
Post by hjernespiser on Nov 16, 2012 19:15:22 GMT 3
|
|
|
Post by hjernespiser on Nov 16, 2012 19:16:26 GMT 3
Massaget,
Simon de Keza writes the same thing, that he won't use the folk tales of the common people, then proceeds to use folk tales and legends from foreign sources.
|
|
|
Post by massaget on Nov 16, 2012 19:38:28 GMT 3
I dont think Anonymous' work would be less historically consistent than any other work, anywhere else of his age. We cant call it a pack of folk tales cause its simply not true.
|
|
|
Post by massaget on Nov 17, 2012 15:35:25 GMT 3
hjernespiser : wich magyar tribe/personal names do you consider as finno-ugrian hungarian ?
only nyék comes to my mind. even magy-ar is doubted
|
|
|
Post by massaget on Nov 17, 2012 15:37:53 GMT 3
tarjan - bashkir jenõ - bashkir (jeney) gyarmat - bashkir (yurmat)
ker, kesi, nyek, and megyer : wich is finnougrian ?
|
|