Ibn Battuta and Azerbaijan in 1300s

[Deleted]

I saw some threads about Azeri Turks and Azerbaijan and laughable claims by some of our Persian friends. I rather open new thread instead of replying to months-years old messages.

I would rather believe Ibn Battuta's eyewitness accounts, and not made-up facts by Persian chuvanists like Kasravi etc...

He describes in his book how Tabriz is a Turk populated city, and calls people from Azerbaijan as Turk.





Taken from "The adventures of Ibn Battuta, a Muslim traveler of the fourteenth century".

[Deleted]

It is well known that Oghuz Turks and Seljuqs adopted Persian culture, they never "Turkified" anything, nor they wished to, on the contrary they adopted foreign culture and language. So how could there be any Turkification when Seljuqs themselves were culturally "Persianized"?

Maybe the reason why Azerbaijan are Oghuz are because of the countless Oghuz Turkmen tribes that settled in Azerbaijan and over time made up the majority? No, it can't be.

[Azadan Januspar]

I saw some threads about Azeri Turks and Azerbaijan and laughable claims by some of our Persian friends. I rather open new thread instead of replying to months-years old messag

Oh yeah? We will laugh if we get chance to be enlightened again

I would rather believe Ibn Battuta's eyewitness accounts, and not made-up facts by Persian chuvanists like Kasravi etc...

He describes in his book how Tabriz is a Turk populated city, and calls people from Azerbaijan as Turk.

To me there's no telling why guys obsessed with terms like chauvinism, speak like that, but if we compare the works of the latter with many respectful contemporary Azerbaijani historians, I wonder what we would call them if he is called a chauvinist. Of course many Azerbaijani historians only targeted the illiterate or the uninformed who have no clue about history at all.

The period of Ibn Battuta travels was during the time of late Illkhanid mongols thus after Mongol invasions, there is no wonder silk road city of Tabriz which was already settled numerous times with Turkmen oghuz tribes, and ghazis, now being populated with fresh wave of Turkish and mongol people which arrived there by the time of Mongol conquest of western Iran. So there's no point to say that. Even Ibn Battuta didn't mention it: "Turk populated city, and calls people from Azerbaijan as Turk."

he during his one day visit said: "The next morning I entered the town and we came to a great bazaar, called the Ghazan bazaar, one of the finest bazaars I have seen the world over. Every trade is grouped separately in it. I passed through the jewellers' bazaar, and my eyes were dazzled by the varieties of precious stones that I beheld. They were displayed by beautiful slaves wearing rich garments with a waist-sash of silk, who stood in front of the merchants, exhibiting the jewels to the wives of the Turks, while the women were buying them in large quantities and trying to outdo one another. As a result of all this I witnessed a riot--may God preserve us from such! We went on into the ambergris and musk market, and witnessed another riot like it or worse."

It doesn't convey that Azerbaijani people even that time were all Turks, though those times were the turning point of great changes in Azerbaigan cultural, lingual history due to heavy settlement of Altaic people. Not to forget again that region of Azerbaigan before arrival of the first Altaics was also considerably populated by Arab tribesmen settlers due to the Islamic expansion who likewise the successive Turks found a fair land to graze having also the intention of being near the frontiers of the infidels to make annual ghazi raids.

It is well known that Oghuz Turks and Seljuqs adopted Persian culture, they never "Turkified" anything, nor they wished to, on the contrary they adopted foreign culture and language. So how could there be any Turkification when Seljuqs themselves were culturally "Persianized"?

How do you know? Even by the time of the major Oghuz migrations after battle of Dandanghan - with their kin Ghaznavids - the memory of Iranian kings haunted and tempted many to adapt their way, which wasn't only due to the grandeur of their courts, but mainly because of their rather advanced governing systems which was followed for many centuries in the middle-east. I have read somewhere that some Seljuk sultan even endeavored to prepare a family tree that connects him back to Yazdgerd the third the overthrown king of Sassanids. So many new Turkic arrivals adapted the Iranian style out free will but it doesn't mean they haven't left their numerous marks in Iran.

[Deleted]

Good that you at least accept the huge Oghuz settlement in Azerbaijan and don't tell us imaginary stories of "Turkification".

What Ibn Battuta didn't mention?

He clearly says that Tabriz was the first city where he saw Muslim people of Turk origin. And "Turks of Azerbaijan walked with Malinke of Western Sudan".

[Azadan Januspar]

OK, let's check this out. What is it you call "Turkification"? I think it is daylight clear today, that in what became later known as Azerbaijan and Aran regions in early Islamic era there weren't any Turkic or Altaic cultural or lingual elements. The "Turkification" , "Babak Khurramdin" and many other subjects are childish obsessions rather than claims by some folks. Even by the time of Khurramdin movement in Azarbaijan this region hadn't still been chosen as a destination for the Turkics to start their migrations. Of course huge Oghuz and Mongol migrations in later centuries changed the demographics and language of the region to a great extent. In fact Turks merged with former locals, a process happened in many spots in the world. Today Azerbaijanis have piece of both.

And About Ibn Battuta, where exactly he mentioned Tabriz is the first city where the Muslim people of Turkish origins were?!!!! And Turks of Azerbaijan, does it sound to you that Azerbaijan is Turkic in that regard? Come on if you don't have anything historical to share here, I suggest you not to use up much energy and time to have the people of this forum take time only to correct, what you, yourself can do by expanding your reading sources, I personally recommend.

[Deleted]

Can you read?

"Except for his brief trip to Tabriz in Azerbaijan, Ibn Battuta was for the first time visiting a land whose Muslim innhabitants were mostly Turkish".

Azerbaijani ethnicity consists of several Oghuz clans, each with their own names. It includes Afshars, Padar, Bayat, Shahseven, Qaradagh, Qarapapakh, Baharlu, Inanlu, Qajar, Qaragozlu and many more. Don't tell me that other peoples came and took those names.

The cultural relation to Persians however are not denied by anyone, and as I already said, Seljuqs themselves were greately influenced by it.

[Azadan Januspar]

Can you read?

"Except for his brief trip to Tabriz in Azerbaijan, Ibn Battuta was for the first time visiting a land whose Muslim innhabitants were mostly Turkish".

Can you read? heh, ok dude you may also have to give some reading tutorials to members of thsi forum. Alrighty, take another look at what you wrote, that is commentaries not a part from own Ibn Battuta's work. And by that time Turkics migrated heavily into that area, but what are you trying to say by that?! that they hadn't?

Azerbaijani ethnicity consists of several Oghuz clans, each with their own names. It includes Afshars, Padar, Bayat, Shahseven, Qaradagh, Qarapapakh, Baharlu, Inanlu, Qajar, Qaragozlu and many more. Don't tell me that other peoples came and took those names.

What are trying to say by that? Are you talking about the ethnicities of Azeris and how they all are but Turks?! well, thank you for your efforts! Go get decent readings not one but several!

The cultural relation to Persians however are not denied by anyone, and as I already said, Seljuqs themselves were greately influenced by it.

Now that doesn't make any sense anymore what is this now?. I mean, can't you see - apart some guys with no understanding of history at all - people interested in subjects like "Seljuks" "Tuks" and history in general, would prefer to go and read books, instead of listening to some biased nonsense stories some non-historians in Azerbaijani media say? I wonder how you can't figure it yourself.

[Deleted]

I really have hard time figuring out what your saying, are yo replying to my posts or talking to yourself?

What do you mean "what I m trying to say by that"?

The ethnicity of Azerbaijanis consists of several Oghuz clans, and I myself belong to one of them, to Qaradaghli clan from the same area called "Qaradagh" around Ahar. The other clans I mentioned, and there are also more. And there is no doubt that all those clans are Oghuz Turkmen origin.

Just like how Kurds are divided into Kurmanji, Sorani etc...or how like Georgians are divided into Svan, Mingrelian, Laz etc...

What's so difficult to understand? What I m trying to say is there is no doubt all those clans that forms the Azerbaijani Turk ethnicity are all Oghuz Turkmen.

[Azadan Januspar]

I really have hard time figuring out what your saying, are yo replying to my posts or talking to yourself?

I don't know, may be you should try asking yourself, first you brought Ibn Battuta's quotations, which later turned out to be a modern commentary on his work. Then you tried to reveal what you were looking for, defining the ethnicity of Azeri people today as wholly turkic; and historically composed of Oghuz clans. I said and I repeat again, the only target of those satyings are the illiterate, not those who read history books. Azeris of today are composed of historical Iranian, Turkic and Arabic elements above all. you may continue stating that they are purely Turks but I guess you better choose another forum.

What's so difficult to understand? What I m trying to say is there is no doubt all those clans that forms the Azerbaijani Turk ethnicity are all Oghuz Turkmen.

No doubt the Turkic component of Azeris comes from Oghuz tribes.

[Deleted]

I m talking to a wall.

The Azerbaijani or "Azeri" ethnicity are formed by clans I mentioned and more, and all those clans are Oghuz Turkmen clans.

And if there would be a case of mixing with foreigners, it would not be before modern times. I m actually originally from Southern Azerbaijan (Iran), as said Qaradagh area, around Ahar, and I m sure many in that area have not even met a Persian in their life. My grandfather cannot even speak or understand Persian.

Just because some noble Arab families settled in Azerbaijan right after Arab conquests, which has little relation to modern Azerbaijan dosen't adds "Arabic element" into Azerbaijan or Azerbaijani Turks in any way. And above that, it has little relation to modern nation of Azerbaijan, which is a Turkic one. Why are you even talking about 7-8th centuries?

Also, several thousand Russians settled in Azerbaijan after Russian conquest, does it add some "Russian element" into ethnicity of Azerbaijani Turks? Funny guy.

Mostly yes but not entirely. Azerbaijan had always seen Turkic tribes from north aswell, Khazar and Qipchaqs.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

This is for both of you guys:

[Azadan Januspar]

I m talking to a wall.

Yes I am actually a stonewall.

And if there would be a case of mixing with foreigners, 1.it would not be before modern times. I m actually originally from 2.Southern Azerbaijan (Iran), as said Qaradagh area, around Ahar, and 3.I m sure many in that area have not even met a Persian in their life. My grandfather cannot even speak or understand Persian.

Listen, I know you are curious about the history of Turks and Azerbaijan. Yet you are not the first Azeri I met, arguing nearly relying on hearsays. Were I in your shoes, I'd have at least tried to search some historical sources for the claims I may like. Plus you can't change the history only by denying something. But to cut it this time short, I'll try to answer some of your points:

1. How can you say: " it would not before modern times?" Well here no one in Azerbaijan can deny his or her strong Iranian and Arabic ancestries. how can you deny the abundant historical sources over centuries not even in accordance with your claims?

2. Southern Azerbaijan? eh, a neologism of Pan-Turkists. are you gonna tell us that this is historical now? Listen, if you just read a first hand source on history of Azerbaijan and the region or even a reliable history book rather than just listening to media, you won't even mention such names. Just so you know, the much of the region you live yourself Azerbaijan, hadn't been never called Azerbaijan in the past it was mainly a region called 'Aran', until in modern times that Russians trying to reshape the face of region for their colonial interests changed its name similar to the adjacent region of Azarbaijan in Iran only to be able to trigger disputes.

3. Lucky them, then! heh

Just because some noble Arab families settled in Azerbaijan right after Arab conquests, which has little relation to modern Azerbaijan dosen't adds "Arabic element" into Azerbaijan or Azerbaijani Turks in any way. And above that, it has little relation to modern nation of Azerbaijan, which is a Turkic one. Why are you even talking about 7-8th centuries?

Again, if you tried to look up historical sources you wouldn't probably come up with that. Contrary to your remarks Azerbaijan region became one of the desirable destinations for Arabs to settle not only noble arabs, in fact it was at times one of the conquered regions with most Arab tribesmen, history also has it, that the early Arabs in times of their domestic conflicts elsewhere summoned many of their kin from Azerbaijan to come and intervene. Arabs even managed to form several local dynasties, alongside the Kurds, in Azerbaijan, Aran and parts of Armenian kingdoms' regions prior to considerable arrival of the Turkmens.

And again Iranians are not just Persians, your grandpa even if never traveled outside of his birthplace probably lived the times, in which there were more speakers of old Azerbaijani language which was an Iranian dialect but not called Persian, which started to diminish over centuries.


Don't worry Ihsan we are cool.

[Deleted]

First time I hear such a thing.

First of all it would be really appreciated to see sources for considerable amount of Arab settlement in Azerbaijan and not just some families brought to govern areas. Above all, what has that to do with Azeri Turks that are decendets of Oghuz Turks? You are talking about 7-8th century.

BUT again, whomever the heck populated Azerbaijan before, may it be even aliens, has no relation to modern Azeri Turks that are direct descendets of Oghuz Turks, after the so much numerious Oghuz settlement that occured, the others are simply insignificant.


You see, you are typical Persian chuvanist. Aran is only a region of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan as geographical region scretches from Derbent to Hamadan.

It is only made up stories brought only recently by Kasravi that there was an "Azeri language". It wasn't and is not proven. Creating made up-stories are not really a difficult thing.

There are "Iranic" populations in Azerbaijan, Tats and Talysh, and they have neither lost their language nor idenity. Spare us your imaginary stories.

[Deleted]

Also, you should understand that Azerbaijan is only a region name, there is nothing as Azerbaijani/Azeri ethnicity or language. We say Azerbaijani/Azeri Turkish or Azerbaijani/Azeri Turks, as in Turkish dialect of Azerbaijan or Turk of Azerbaijan, in a geographical sense.

Even if there were really a people named Azeri of non-Turk origin before, it has no relation to modern times. Just like today's Slav Macedons has no relation to ancient Greek ones.

Even in Iran Persians call Azeri Turks as "Tork" and language as "Torki", not Azeri!

The Iraqi Turkmens today that still bear the Turkmen name in fact belong to Azerbaijani Turk group, their langauge are southern dialect of Azerbaijani Turkish. And my point is, that Azeri Turks of Iraq today still bears the Turkmen name, which is the original name for modern Azeri Turks.

[Deleted]

I mentioned all those Turkmen clans and this guy still talks about non-Turk populations. Those clans are all Turkmen clans, they are not other peoples that took those names. I don't know if it would help you to understand it, but Azeri or Azerbaijani ethnicity you call today, are formed by those clans.

I myself belong to Turkmen Qaradaglilar clan. tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karada%C4%9Fl%C4%B1lar_%28T%C3%BCrk%29

Ihsan Erkoc, maybe you could explain to this guy please...