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Post by aynur on Aug 21, 2011 19:14:03 GMT 3
Interesting subject to talk about. I personally think that the majority of the ethnic composition of the Hephtalites was Iranic, possbily remnants of the Yuezhi and Scythian tribes that dwelled the lower steppe. There should be no doubt in one's mind that a large portion of them were Turkic, though. Does anybody believe that they had a relation with the Xiongnu? Sassanids battle Hepthalites. www.kavehfarrokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/the-savaran-in-the-northeast.jpgSogdian guard, Sassanid warrior and a Hepthalite noble (I guess).  |
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Post by Ardavarz on Aug 22, 2011 0:05:49 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 22, 2011 16:30:59 GMT 3
The Hephtalites were an interesting steppe people of whom we know rather little about. Regarding any written materials left from them, I just now some coins that contain the names and titles of their rulers. I am also not so sure if they were related with the Asian Huns or Xiong-nu. Following the establishment of the Hunnic Empire by Mao-dun Chan-yu, the name Hun acquired a political name, so that every subject of that empire became called Hun. Just like the names Scythian, Saka, Turk and Tatar, it seems like Hun also, for some time, became a general name used for perhaps most or all of steppe nomadic peoples of their time. So it is not so easy to say that every people that carried the name Hun was ethnicially Hunnic themselves. One connection we can think about between the Asian Huns and Hephtalites may be the short-lived Western Hunnic Empire established in the Talas Valley by Zhi-zhi Chan-yu, who migrated to Turkestan with his followers after he had disagreements with his brother who ruled in Mongolia as the chan-yu who was also a vassal of the Han Empire. We know that an important amount of Zhi-zhi Chan-yu's followers were massacred or taken prisoners by the Chinese, but of course the majority must have been scattered around. Perhaps the earliest ancestors, at least partially, of the Hephtalites were these Huns of Zhi-zhi Chan-yu. And/or perhaps, the second wave of Hunnic migrations towards Turkestan that followed the Xian-bei overrun of Mongolia in the 2nd century AD also led or contributed to the creation of the Hephtalites. Regarding the ethnicity of the Hephtalites, there are numerious theories alongside those I wrote above. Some of them indeed link them with the Avars, which may have been possible. And of course, following their conquest of the region, the Hephtalites must have incorporated the subjects of the Kushan Empire into their own.
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Post by Ardavarz on Aug 28, 2011 0:39:34 GMT 3
One of the things I have wondered about is whether the Kushan ruling clan is related to those Western Xiongnu of Zhi-zhi Shan-yu. They emerged as leaders of the four tribes in Bactria around the same time of the Zhi-zhi's defeat.
There is a similar legend in Volga Bulgarian sources about the Hunnic ruler Jelki Khan (= Zhi-zhi Shan-yu?) obviously related to these events. According to it his baby son survived the massacre in a cauldron casted in the river Talas (a common folklore motif). Later he was brought up by the king of Masguts (or Massagetae referring probably to the Big Yueh-chih in Bactria) and eventually he restored the Hunnic kingdom. Because of those events he was by-named Kazan - "cauldron"(Kushan?).
And indeed the Kushans have adopted the Hunnic title Yabghu and also some Hunnic-sounding names like Kujula and Takto.
The Hephtalites could be related to them directly or indirectly. It is interesting that according to one Chinese source the name "Hephtalite" is derived from the personal name of some ancestor (Hephtal?). When comparing this with Arabian rendering "Abdel" and Bactrian "Ebodalo" I wonder if it has something to do with the legendary Avitohol (2nd - 5th century) from Bulgarian List of the Rulers. If so, this may indicate that Hephtalites have some relation with Hunno-Bulgarian royal clan Dulo. (In Volga Bulgarian legends Dulo is the name of the ancestral river of the Huns identified with Tola in Mongolia and Talas in Central Asia).
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 28, 2011 23:18:11 GMT 3
Perhaps, why not?
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 8, 2011 20:28:45 GMT 3
Because of those events he was by-named Kazan - "cauldron"(Kushan?). And indeed the Kushans have adopted the Hunnic title Yabghu and also some Hunnic-sounding names like Kujula and Takto. Kushan was one of the regional kingdosm that eventually unified all the other Yue-zhi tribes to form the greater kushan. and how is Kujula and Takto hunnic sounding, if we know only very few hunnic words? |
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 8, 2011 23:53:13 GMT 3
Because of those events he was by-named Kazan - "cauldron"(Kushan?). And indeed the Kushans have adopted the Hunnic title Yabghu and also some Hunnic-sounding names like Kujula and Takto. Kushan was one of the regional kingdosm that eventually unified all the other Yue-zhi tribes to form the greater kushan. and how is Kujula and Takto hunnic sounding, if we know only very few hunnic words? There were four major tribes in Bactria at that time - Asians, Pasians, Tochars (Yue-zhi) and Sakaraucas ("Light Sakas"). It is not clear (neither is explicitly stated in the available sources) whether the clan of Kushans has belonged to one of those four tribes or have had some other origin. Since both alternatives are thus equally possible and Kushans emerged out of nowhere just about the time of defeat of the Western Xiongnu, it is at least possible to consider some connection between these events. The name Kujula may be compared with the name of Wuzhuliu Shanyu (Chinese rendering) and also with the name of Khingila (a Hunnic ruler in India contemporary of Attila) - it seems the suffix -la is frequent in Hunnic names. Takto from the other hand resembles Bulgarian Toktos (Toktu) and Mongolian Toktai. I said they sound like Hunnic names - they could be Hunnic by origin but distorted in Bactrian language which Kushans have adopted subsequently. It is interesting also that "Kushan" sounds similar to Bulgarian title Kaukhan ("co-ruler" or "viceroy") which could be an equivalent of the title of Zhi-zhi before he split up from his brother. But it may be a coincidence of course. |
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 11, 2011 22:46:21 GMT 3
the suffix -la is above all frequent amongst Gothic names, and similar suffixes among other indo-european tribes.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 15, 2011 4:20:41 GMT 3
Again the European researchers think that the Hephtalites are Indo-European because some of the rulers had Indo-European names like Mihirakula or Toramana.
They should stop making fast assumptions and reaching a direct consensus by only investigating names. I do not say it is Turkic or Indo-European. IF they are called the White Huns thn this means they split up from the Xiongnu and went to the south. Just like Atilla's huns were the 'Strong Huns' and migrated westward and adapted new elements.
And if the Europeans claim they spoke an Indo-European language and that their names also were Indo-European but that they also found much Hunnic elements, then the White Huns must be a Hunnic Xiongnu tribe who have accepted an Iranian language as their official language. This theory could be possible because the scientists doubt the origin of the Hephtalite that they could also be possibly Turkic in origin.
Or it is possible that the White Huns are the Chuban, the 'weak Huns' and that they are in command under an Iranian ruler that founded the White Hun empire and used those Chubans tribal name, thus the White Huns, to frighten their ennemies. And the scientists coincidently found Hunnic bodies belonging to the White Hun empire and this could solve the fact why there are Turkic elements in belonging to the White Hun empire!
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 15, 2011 15:42:35 GMT 3
One of the things I have wondered about is whether the Kushan ruling clan is related to those Western Xiongnu of Zhi-zhi Shan-yu. They emerged as leaders of the four tribes in Bactria around the same time of the Zhi-zhi's defeat. There is a similar legend in Volga Bulgarian sources about the Hunnic ruler Jelki Khan (= Zhi-zhi Shan-yu?) obviously related to these events. According to it his baby son survived the massacre in a cauldron casted in the river Talas (a common folklore motif). Later he was brought up by the king of Masguts (or Massagetae referring probably to the Big Yueh-chih in Bactria) and eventually he restored the Hunnic kingdom. Because of those events he was by-named Kazan - "cauldron"(Kushan?). And indeed the Kushans have adopted the Hunnic title Yabghu and also some Hunnic-sounding names like Kujula and Takto. The Hephtalites could be related to them directly or indirectly. It is interesting that according to one Chinese source the name "Hephtalite" is derived from the personal name of some ancestor (Hephtal?). When comparing this with Arabian rendering "Abdel" and Bactrian "Ebodalo" I wonder if it has something to do with the legendary Avitohol (2nd - 5th century) from Bulgarian List of the Rulers. If so, this may indicate that Hephtalites have some relation with Hunno-Bulgarian royal clan Dulo. (In Volga Bulgarian legends Dulo is the name of the ancestral river of the Huns identified with Tola in Mongolia and Talas in Central Asia). Here is an alternative reading of a Kushan coin by Haluk Berkmen:  The Greek version is Mαασηνo (maaseno, Mahasena) The Turkic version is Hakan Tigin. Despite the 2nd and 3rd letters are different, experts assumed that they both represent the A sound and it should be read as Maha. (The H letter is an imaginary letter added by experts. Don't ask me how and why because I'm not an expert). Still we actually all know what this letter actually is:  |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 16, 2011 14:07:44 GMT 3
It definitetly can not be Hakan because it's the modern Turkish rendering of the Arabo-Persian version Khāqān which is itself a rendering of the Old Turkic title Qaghan. If the title written on the coin was indeed Qaghan, it would have been written as Qaghan.
And Tigin is also not written that way with the Turkic Runic script.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 16, 2011 16:36:43 GMT 3
I agree with you Ihsan Erkoc, again a failed attempt of Turkish wannabe scholars.
I thought also Hakan is the Persian form of Qaghan.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 16, 2011 19:45:08 GMT 3
Indeed. And I'm sick of all those weirdoes who try to connect everything to Turks by using uncredible, wrong methods.
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Post by ancalimon on Sept 17, 2011 0:01:56 GMT 3
Hmm.. So when an expert created an imaginary letter and read two different letters as the same sound, he is not a weirdo?
I am definitely not defending Mr. Berkmen here. But the other attempt is even worse than this alternative reading and that's a fact and anyone with logic can see that.
Besides Mr. Berkmen did not write that the words remained the same and he did not write that these Kushans were not influenced by Persians or "Indo-Europeans".
Also, I don't think calling someone "weirdo" just because you are not interested in what he is trying to prove is a polite thing to do (I'm sure there are better methods and platforms to prove what he is trying to prove but that's not the point). Especially when all that person did was to try reading something in Turkic and that something was a coin from Kushans who belonged to Turkic social class (thus spoke a from of Turkic) according to some people.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 17, 2011 2:29:21 GMT 3
My intention was not to harras you but here is the truth of the title Qaghan:
Origin
The title was first seen in a speech between 283 and 289, when the Xianbei chief Murong Tuyuhun tried to escape from his younger stepbrother Murong Hui, and began his route from Liaodong to the areas of Ordos Desert. In the speech one of the Murong's general named Yinalou addressed him as kehan (可寒, later as 可汗), some sources suggests that Tuyuhun might also have used the title after settling at Koko Nor in the 3rd century.[3]
The Rourans were the first people who used the titles Khagan and Khan for their emperors (which are, therefore, assumed to be Mongolic in origin), replacing the Chanyu of the Xiongnu, whom Grousset and others assume to be Turkic.[4] However, many scholars believe the Rouran were proto-Mongols.[5][6][7]
The Avars, who may have included Juan Juan elements after the Göktürks crushed the Juan Juan who ruled Mongolia, also used this title. The Avars invaded Europe, and for over a century ruled the Carpathian region. Westerners Latinized the title "Khagan" into "Gaganus" or Cagan et Iugurro principibus Hunorum.
Khāqān (Hakan) is the Persianized form of Qaghan.
The Kushan coin is from 127. It's impossible an Empire who is most probably from Indo-European stock could have used that title especially when the Xianbei were the first ones to use it.
Remind you, I was speaking about the failed coin inscription translation, not about the Turkicness of the Kushans.
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