OK. Technically you can just join the yahoo group, but it isn't very active and your forum here actually rivals that one
Now if we can only get Peter Golden here?
Here's what there is, not in any particular order:
------------------
Dear All,
Is this from a manuscript of Movses Khorenac'i/Moses of Chorene's History of the Armenians? If so, although the latter is attributed to the 5th century, but most scholars believe it was written in the latter part of the 8th century. That would put a very different spin on things. Several of the words are clearly Turkic or Hungarian:
> Moon: (H)Ayi - ay
> Gemini (Twins): Yerku (Twins) cf. Turkic ikiz "twins" - Oghur-Bulgharic *ikir/*yiker > Hungarian iker (an old borrowing)
> Leo: Kutha (Dog) - this looks a lot like Hungarian kutya which comes from the Ugric base of Hungarian
> Virgo: Viragh (Flower) -also Hungarian (virag)
> Capricornus: Beka (Frog) - also Hungarian, but ultimately of Turkic origin (baqa).
Frankly, this is all a bit suspicious. The words that jump out are all modern Hungarian forms or too close to them.
Peter B. Golden
On Aug 17, 2006, at 5:13 PM, Bihari Gábor wrote:
> Dear Etienne,
>
> I hope you do not mind if I post the answers also to the list - perhaps
> the same questions arise in others thoughts.
> So the whole codex is written in Old Armenian with Armenian letters.
> Perhaps this is why the locals did not recognise its content. The
> geologist I mentioned is a member of the small Armenian community of
> Hungary, and although an amateur in linguistics, he is very well
> trained in Armenian history. As the work of Moses of Chorene is a very
> important source material for the history of the steppe nations, I'm
> sure he knows it well, especially because one of his friends translated
> it to Hungarian - perhaps he also contributed for that? I do not
> know... Thus the 5th century Armenian text probably did not cause
> serious difficulties for him to understand and to copy by hand.
> Here follows the part for the celestial things:
>
> Moon: (H)Ayi
>
> Venus: Feni
>
> Mars: Verilun
>
> Jupiter: Pralun
>
> Saturn: Yalalun
>
>
> Milky Way: Eyalana
>
> Ursa Maior: Lubba (Sthingy)
>
> Orion: Würen (perhaps Guard)
>
> Gemini (Twins): Yerku (Twins)
>
> Cassiopeia: Bollob (?)
>
> Draco: Shash (Eagle)
>
> Corona Borealis: Einaia (?)
>
> Leo: Kutha (Dog)
>
> Cygnus: Gize (Cross)
>
> Sagittarius (Archer): Viyeshi (Archer)
>
> Scorpius: Yiyeti (perhaps Crab)
>
> Aries: Doitieloia (?)
>
> Auriga: Pshak (Wreath, Crown)
>
> Taurus: Bara (Spear)
>
> Virgo: Viragh (Flower)
>
> Capricornus: Beka (Frog)
>
> Canis Maior: Chun (Man, Warrior)
>
> Aquila: Viyu (Bow)
>
> Delphinus: Kaluynijishegh (Rhombus)
>
> Best,
>
> Gabor
>
>
>
> Etienne de la Vaissičre <vaissier@...> írta:
>
>> Thanks for the answer. However how did he manage to first copy
> the
>> manuscript (pahlavi is an especially awful script for non-
>> specialists) and then to have it deciphered and translated ? It
> seems
>> that in the last months there were quite a lot of fakes coming from
>> iran (especially a fake avesta on gold plates). But I will be very
>> interested to read the list and have details
>>
>> yours
>>
>>
>> Etienne
>>
>> Le 17 aoűt 06 ŕ 13:39, Bihari Gábor a écrit :
>>
>>> Dear Etienne,
>>>
>>> The genuineness of the codex is really an important question. The
>>> man who have seen it, asked for permission to make some photos,
>>> but it was forbidden by the abbot (excuse me I do not know the
>>> proper word for muslims) of the closter. Thus he copied some
> pages
>>> and put the translation to some Hungarian pages.
>>> The man itself is one of the best known Hungarian geologists, he
> was
>>> the leader of a research group on the meteorite impacts at the
>>> International Geological Society. Thus, he surely is not
> a "crackpot".
>>> Which is not a perfect proof, but enough to deal with the question.
>>> The other proof is, that there are too logical consequences of
> these
>>> words and a forger must be a genius to fabricate such a list.
>>> For example the Hunnish word for sword is "surr" which can
> perhaps
>>> be linked to the Hungarian werb "sur", meaning "to stick in(to)",
> and
>>> perhaps even to the Germanic words for sword and the Old High
>>> German word sweran "to hurt". At least these Germanic words
> have
>>> no cognates out of the Germanic group in other IE languages.
>>>
>>> I will send a part of the word list for discussion soon.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Gabor
>>>
>>> Etienne de la Vaissičre <vaissier@...> írta:
>>>
>>>> Dear ister
>>>>
>>>> I have already forwarded your message to the sogdian-l.
>>>>
>>>> What is this codex ? How do we know that it is genuine ?
>>>>
>>>> yours
>>>>
>>>> Etienne de la Vaissičre
-------------------------
Dear Peter,
I do not know anything about the author of the manuscript. If anyone
knows a bit of Hungarian, the word list can be found at several
pages when searching for the name of the discoverer, Detre Csaba.
A possible link is:
www.kitalaltkozepkor.hu/hun_szavak.htmlI think otherwise, that the case is more refined about the Ugrian
and Altaic words. For example the first part of the name of the
Milky Way "Eyalana" can be attributed to the Hungarian word "éjjel
(eyyel)" which means nighttime.
The word "kutha" (dog) is probably an Indo-iranian loanword either
in Hungarian, see Hindi "kutta".
As far as I can recall, the word "beka" have also a cognate in the
Indo-iranian languages, thus these are must be quite international
words in the Central Asian area.
The only Hungarian-like word left is really similar Viragh - but
this is also interesting, since it can be a folk-etymology of the
Latin name Virgo
While it is true, about the third of the words in the list have
Hungarian cognates. Some of them are quite basic words, thus perhaps
a linguist would consider it to be an Ugrian language. Though too
strange for us, Hungarians, so I guess it is more near to the Ob-
Ugrian languages. For example the word "chun" meaning man -
obviously the source for the name Hun - reminds me to the national
name of the Chanty, one of the Ob-Ugrian tribes.
While I do not know much about the Turkic languages so I cannot
recognise Turkic cognates.
Soon posting another part of the list.
Best,
Gabor
--------------------------
Dear Gabor,
Many thanks for the link. I read Hungarian. I take it this is from a forthcoming book - which I will await with great eagerness. A rushed look at the entries indicates to me a sizable number of words that are virtually identical with Modern Hungarian forms. This does raise some questions. Although the question of Ugric-speaking groups in the Ponto-Caspian steppes and extending into the Caucasus in the 5th century is rather early for any of the reconstructions of pre-Conquest era Hungarian (honfoglalás előtti magyarság) history, I would not automatically rule it out. But, I would expect forms of words that differ, in many instances, quite considerably, from the modern forms.
Hung. béka "frog" is ultimately part of the Altaic stock (see Starostin et al., "Etymological Dictionary of the Altaic Languages," II, p.920). It is a borrowing from Turkic into Hungarian, Persian and some other languages (see Sevortian, "Etimologicheskii slovar' tiurkskikh iazykov," II (1978), pp.40-42).
Benkő et al. "A magyar nyelv történeti-etimológiai szótára," III, p. 1151, consider virág ("flower") a variant of világ "light") and cite a variety of Indo-European semantic parallels light-flower. It is an interesting hypothesis.
Khanty has been explained as deriving from a term meaning "person" *kunta etc cf. Hung "had" "army" (Khanty "xânt" "army"). Whether this has anything to do with word or ethnonym Hun (the original form of which is far from clear) is uncertain. Németh ("A honfoglaló magyarság kialakulása, 2nd ed. Bp., 1991), p. 57 attempted to connect hun, kun/qun, kün, kümün, xum, kum etc., all denoting, "person, people" etc. but this, as far as I know, has not found wide acceptance.
In terms of the new codex, one would have to explain why there appear to be Turkic and Ugric (Hungarian) words in "Hunnic". This is possible, but it will require a great deal of argumentation, not to mention a recasting of early Hungarian history.
I guess I will have to wait for the book - hopefully it will include a facsimile of the Armenian text.
Best,
Peter
------------------------
> Dear Gabor,
> Many thanks for the link. I read Hungarian.
Surprising but great news!
So than you can read some good books on our topic! I think you would
like my book on the origin of the Szeklers (Sekeys).
Although I'm not linguist, and not even historian, I jumped into the
nomadic topic a few years ago (I dealt with nuclear physics -
radiometric dating methods and natural radioisotopes - before I
became a freelance writer). My method is quite new in this field and
quite close to the natural sciences and mathematics. I was trying to
find correlation between place names and basic words of different
languages / tribe names, etc. First I tested the method on basic
Iranian words and Scythian tribe names, and I found interesting
correlations between some groups of Iranian-like place names and the
Szeklers. Which was only an interesting hint, until I realized that
these place names draw up a special pattern on the map: the Roman
road system of Pannonia and Dacia with some linking roads on the
plains area between.
I'm testing the method now on the Sarmatians / Alans - strangely
nothing serious appearing in Britain, while the south of France and
north of Spain seems to be heavily settled by them...
> I take it this is from a forthcoming book - which I will await
> with great eagerness.
I tried to reach the geologist in question, but couldn't. I was
working with him regarding the meteorite impacts, but since than he
retired and almost disappeared from the scene - perhaps he is
spending a lot of time in Armenia and Iran.
> A rushed look at the entries indicates to me a sizable number of
> words that are virtually identical with Modern Hungarian forms.
While there are other words, that are quite different, although
probably have Hungarian cognates. As a physicist, I know, my
feelings must not be involved in the process, and I am not an
expert, so I leave open the possibility of the fake.
> This does raise some questions. Although the question of Ugric-
> speaking groups in the Ponto-Caspian steppes and extending into
> the Caucasus in the 5th century is rather early for any of the
> reconstructions of pre-Conquest era Hungarian (honfoglalás elõtti
> magyarság) history, I would not automatically rule it out. But, I
> would expect forms of words that differ, in many instances, quite
> considerably, from the modern forms.
You probably would find interesting the book (2005) of a member of
the Academy. He supposed that the pre-proto-willbeonce-Uralic
language was spoken by the group of Eastern Europeans of the Ice Age
which have the characteristic Eu19 Y-cromosome haplotype. (The
Western group is the closest relative, the Basque-like peoples of
the Eu18 type.) If he is right, Ugrian languages were much more
frequent a few thousand years ago, but almost became extinct for now
with a few exception.
> Hung. béka "frog" is ultimately part of the Altaic stock (see
> Starostin et al., "Etymological Dictionary of the Altaic
> Languages," II, p.920). It is a borrowing from Turkic into
> Hungarian, Persian and some other languages (see
> Sevortian, "Etimologicheskii slovar' tiurkskikh iazykov," II
> (1978), pp.40-42).
> Benkõ et al. "A magyar nyelv történeti-etimológiai szótára," III,
> p. 1151, consider virág ("flower") a variant of világ "light") and
> cite a variety of Indo-European semantic parallels light-flower.
> It is an interesting hypothesis.
Well, difficult thing. My vote would go to link it with the
words "virgacs" (birch, broom - a handful of tied small
treebranches), and thus the werb ver (beat). Perhaps...
> Khanty has been explained as deriving from a term meaning "person"
> *kunta etc cf. Hung "had" "army" (Khanty "xânt" "army"). Whether
> this has anything to do with word or ethnonym Hun (the original
> form of which is far from clear) is uncertain. Németh ("A
> honfoglaló magyarság kialakulása, 2nd ed. Bp., 1991), p. 57
> attempted to connect hun, kun/qun, kün, kümün, xum, kum etc., all
> denoting, "person, people" etc. but this, as far as I know, has
> not found wide acceptance.
I think, the first part is OK, but the second is not. As far as I
know, the name of the Cumans (quman) does not appear in the shorter
form in place names in the East, and thus the longer form "quman"
must be the original, instead of the "qun" form. Németh had several
other serious problems, like not considering the V read of the
Greek "beta" letter, reading it always to B in the late Roman, early
MA Greek texts.
> In terms of the new codex, one would have to explain why there
> appear to be Turkic and Ugric (Hungarian) words in "Hunnic". This
> is possible, but it will require a great deal of argumentation,
> not to mention a recasting of early Hungarian history.
The recasting process is already going on. Even the Academy seems to
be in splitting, some of the members are defending the old theories,
which was obviously supported by political reasons, and bleeding
from thousand wounds, while others are considering also the new
discoveries - like the highest incidence of the Eu19 haplotype in
the Hungarians (you may know the Semino et al. article in Science,
2000).
> I guess I will have to wait for the book - hopefully it will
> include a facsimile of the Armenian text.
It must be there otherwise it is difficult to take it seriously.
Gabor
---------------------
Dear Gabor,
Many thanks for your interesting comments. The Szelers (Szekely) have been the subject of debate for a very long time.
The whole of the region, extending into Ukraine and Southern Russia is filled with place names and river names of Iranian origin, cf. Danube, Dnestr, Dnepr, Don, Donets (all from Iranian dan/don < Old Iran. danu "water" dan- "to flow quickly" etc.). The area was successively the home to a number of Iranian peoples from the Scythians and Sarmatians up to the Alans. János Harmatta has done fundamental work on that. Modern Hungarian still retains traces of that interaction (eg. asszony "woman" < Alanic akhsin. hid "bridge < khid, kard "sword" < kart etc.). Similar borrowings are found in other Ugric languages and Volga Finnic. The Alanic tribes were widespread over the region and Iranian nomadic populations have been interested in the fur trade since the first millennium BC and were in contact with these peoples. You can get some sense of the interaction from Éva Korenchy's study, Iranische Lehnwörter in den obugrischen Sprachen (Budapest, 1972).
The linguists have been up and down these paths for a long time - often with very good results. Archaeological finds, in the absence of written texts - even of the most primitive form - pose greater problems of interpretation as elements of material culture travel and groups of different ethno-linguistic origins will often share, archaeologically, many cultural markers. The growing study of DNA should tell us much more about these populations - although here too one must be very cautious. Although there are connections between DNA groupings and language families and I think that we are just beginning to learn more about this important topic, languages often move around and are adopted (for a variety of reasons) by groupings of peoples for whom they were not original tongues. Uralic-Basque connections would be a great stretch indeed.
Best,
Peter
Now if we can only get Peter Golden here?
