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Post by ancalimon on Jan 22, 2011 23:43:06 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 23, 2011 17:44:42 GMT 3
The Rou-ran 柔然 (called Ruan-ruan or Ru-ru 蠕蠕 by the Chinese) were a union of different tribes and peoples who were united by Yu-jiu-lü Mu-gu-lü 郁久閭木骨閭 who was of Xian-bei 鮮卑 (Proto-Mongolic) origin. The dynasty was Proto-Mongolic but the population was diverse, as it accepted everyone who fled from northern China - mostly nomads of both Turkic and Mongolic stock. From Chinese accounts, we know that some branchs of the Huns considered the Rou-ran different from themselves.
The Gokturks had several different origins. Chinese accounts show them as "a branch of the Huns", but we don't know if this branch of ethnicially Hunnic (i.e. that it belonged to the original Huns), or were politically Hunnic, as at that time, every ethnicially Hunnic and non-Hunnic people that were under Hunnic rule were called "Hun". The Chinese also use the term "Mixed Foreigners" to describe the Gokturks when their ancestors were living in Gansu. The A-shi-na 阿史那 dynasty, however, is described as the descendents of the Hunnic leader Ju-qu Meng-xun 沮渠蒙遜.
Regarding the "helmet" theory for the meaning of the name "Türük/Türk", it seems to have been a folk etymology that somehow reached Chinese historians at that time and today, it is discredited.
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Post by hjernespiser on Jan 23, 2011 23:19:58 GMT 3
I like that, ethnically Hun vs. politically Hun.
I'm further lead along the path of believing that our modern interpretation of ethnicity is quite different from how the ancient steppe peoples saw themselves.
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Post by ancalimon on Jan 24, 2011 0:46:56 GMT 3
I like that, ethnically Hun vs. politically Hun. I'm further lead along the path of believing that our modern interpretation of ethnicity is quite different from how the ancient steppe peoples saw themselves. I talked about that on this forum too. I think there was no race or ethnicity concept among the steppe people. There was some kind of "homey" concept or some kind of "belonging to same earth, mother" concept.
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Post by Ardavarz on Jan 24, 2011 2:22:05 GMT 3
I like that, ethnically Hun vs. politically Hun. I'm further lead along the path of believing that our modern interpretation of ethnicity is quite different from how the ancient steppe peoples saw themselves. Exactly. People now are very confused about that. They combined quite arbitrary different features as name, ethnicity, race, language, political affiliation etc. creating bizarre ideas. I think it is due to clinging to the false notion of "identity" (or "nationality") which is basically meaningless. It has invented with emerging of the secular state of modern times (the "new idol" as Nietzsche called it) in order to replace the old religious ideology in keeping people in line. I have thought about the term el ( il). It is not just the tribe or the state as sometimes is translated, but embraces also the surrounding nature with people living in it as a whole. It seems to me almost as the modern notion of "ecosystem".
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Post by ceonni on Jan 24, 2011 8:19:41 GMT 3
Rou-Ran is obviously a cognate of the ethnonym used in Greek at the time of the Avar invasion: Geogen.
And Geogen is apparently a cognate of 1) Choseon (ancient name of Korea that has to do with its Yemaek phase) 2) Jurchen 3) Sushen (same people as Jurchen)
Apparently, this ethnonym is cognate with ethnic groups of Tungusic, or originally Fuyu-Japonic origins.
However, the Rou-Ran is said to be of Donghu-Mongolic stock like the Xianbei (Tabgach, Murong, Yuwen etc.)
However, the very dynamics of the mongolian steppes confederations as demonstrated by later confederations like Gokturks, Chinggisid Mongols, Kazakhs, Oirats, shows that a subset of the great horde may well preserve ancestral racial identity while entirely adopt the speech, rituals, and political institutions of the dominant set. We see this in the Kazakh hordes preserving clans called Uisyn, Naiman, Kereit, while assimilating them into the common Kazakh identity.
So, as late as the time of the Tabgach dominance, the Tungusic (or Fuyu-Japonic) clan of Rou-ran may have been subsumed by the Xianbei culture to become a subset of the Tabgach horde, so much so that it was identified in Chinese texts as "Animal Husbandry Slaves of the Tabgach". The lowly status of a numerous subset of the Xianbei horde of Tabgach, hints at possible alien origin of this part of the population.
In fact, it may be wrong to use the name "Fuyu-Japonic". The Japanese language may just be a descendant of the Fuyu languages. And while on the continent, the Fuyuic peoples were simply referred to by the names of Fuyu, Okjeo, Ye-Maek, Goguryeo, Guru, Kudara, Baekje.
It is only mixing with more indigenous elements on Japan, that the descendant language of the Fuyuic could be called Japonic.
Anyways: the Koreans conquered Europe once, lol. (it's an inside joke on the Koreans in case you are not familiar with it)
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Post by Ardavarz on Jan 25, 2011 2:31:26 GMT 3
I have read that Ruan-ruan was a derogatory nickname used by Chinese, so it might not render the original name of this tribal confederation. But still I haven't researched this topic in detail and I am not aware of all possible interpretations.
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Post by ceonni on Jan 25, 2011 7:23:48 GMT 3
The original chinese characters for Rouran has nothing derogatory. And this subset of the Xianbei nation has always been called Rouran and transcribed in Chinese characters that are not derogatory.
However, as Rouran became a threat to the Tabgach which was already a Chinese dynasty, the Tabgach emperor, following the tradition of Chinese Public Relations/propaganda, transcribed the name Rouran in the derogatory characters Ruan-Ruan, which means "moving slugs".
The pronunciation of "Ruan-Ruan" is never really an exact replication of the original name Rouran, or related Shushen, Jurchen, Choseon. It is apparently that Rouran is not the doubling of the syllable "Ruan". In fact very few Mongolic or Tungusic words contain such syllabic structure as "Ruan-Ruan" which is apparently a Sino-Tibetan bastardization of the name.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 25, 2011 15:35:28 GMT 3
According to the Chinese, Rou-ran 柔然 was their original name. Peter Benjamin Golden has written that this name might have been related with the Proto-Mongolic name *Nönör (meaning "free-wanderer", as in the case of the name "Qazaq"), which later became Nökör/Nöker.
As Ceonni already said, Ruan-ruan or Ru-ru 蠕蠕 was the Chinese deragotary version of their name.
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Post by ceonni on Jan 26, 2011 0:17:04 GMT 3
Ru-ru or Ruan-ruan seems plausible as a derogatory rendering of the byname for this xianbei group which was "Nönör".
But I doubt the name Rouran has anything to do with "Nönör". This name was transcribed as Geougen during the Avar invasion, by the Greeks. There is no way that "Nönör " could be phonetically connected to "Geougen".
There are, of course, northern and southern dialects of China.
The characters of modern mandarin Rouran, could reflect a tabgach period northern dialect pronunciation of "Yeo-Yen" or "Zhou-zhen". However the southern dialect of the time could have pronounced it "Neo-nyen".
I am inclined to think of the Rouran as an element that descended from captive or assimilated Tungusic or Fuyuic elements among the Tabgach dominated Xianbei.
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Post by ancalimon on Apr 5, 2011 2:33:01 GMT 3
Could the English people be somehow related to these Juan Juan people? Or were? And what about Georgians?
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Post by ALTAR on Apr 6, 2011 0:36:08 GMT 3
Aborigines may be... ;D Abor=Avar + Borigine= Borjegin ;D
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 7, 2011 2:35:56 GMT 3
LOL ;D Dear Ancalimon, how can you come up with these ideas?
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Post by ancalimon on Apr 7, 2011 20:46:53 GMT 3
LOL ;D Dear Ancalimon, how can you come up with these ideas? It's complicated. It didn't make sense so I asked Where did they go? Which people are the descended of these Juan Juans? Any ideas?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 8, 2011 20:03:56 GMT 3
They just scattered around the steppes, probably some of them were emerged into the Gokturks, and some scholars think they united with the Hephtalites and became the European Avars.
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