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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 2, 2010 0:51:40 GMT 3
Indeed, I agree
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Post by Ardavarz on Nov 2, 2010 3:18:06 GMT 3
An interesting side note to your King Arthur legend...I have read a few articles that claim Excalibur...Arthur's Sword that made him invincible..Is actually the same as Attila's sword of Mars/Ares that made him invincible. You gotta Love/Hate the Dark Ages...So much was happening that we are so unsure of. This is probably the same archetype perhaps originated from the cult of Scythian sword-god which Herodotus identifies with Ares. He didn't give his native name, but I suspect it could have been Kumar or Kimer - most likely borrowed from Sindians (= Sanskrit Kumāra - "young man, hero", an epithet of the war god Skanda). And thence maybe the name of Cimmerians - some vanguard troops of young warriors. "Scythian Ares" was the only deity which had a formal representation - it was a big sword stuck in earth or erected altar. (In Ossetian guymir/gumer means "giant", "club" and "idol"). Then in Tengrian mythology the magic sword of victory belongs to Kubar (the phonetic change b~m is usual in Altaic languages) - the god of storm and battles with animal incarnations as wolf and bars, sometimes one-eyed (just like Odin!). The Attila's sword most likely belongs to the same cycle of legends. As I mentioned before the Huns have assimilated Scythian cultural tradition which was not very different from their own. And yes, nothing is sure, of course. That's why I think only of probabilities of more or less coherent models.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 3, 2010 15:10:03 GMT 3
Actually this cult of swords existed among the Asian Huns (Xiongnu) too, as described in Hanshu. According to that annal, the Huns worshipped "Jing-lu Dao 徑路刀" (*Qïŋraq Dagger) and they had a "Jing-lu-shen Ci 徑路神祠" (Qïŋraq God Temple).
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Post by Ardavarz on Nov 4, 2010 1:43:36 GMT 3
That's amazing! One more parallel between Scythians and Xiongnu/Huns. Now I remember I have come across this or similar evidence before but then I didn't make the association. I have found some striking parallels between Scythian and Mongolian mythology for instance and it's really amazing how similar could be the cultures from different ages in two opposite corners of the Steppe. It seems besides the inter-ethnic contacts and a possible common origin from a primeval culture there is actually a common Steppe cultural archetype "from Danube to Amur" as Yuri Roerich put it.
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Post by sarmat on Nov 4, 2010 18:13:38 GMT 3
That's amazing! One more parallel between Scythians and Xiongnu/Huns. Now I remember I have come across this or similar evidence before but then I didn't make the association. I have found some striking parallels between Scythian and Mongolian mythology for instance and it's really amazing how similar could be the cultures from different ages in two opposite corners of the Steppe. It seems besides the inter-ethnic contacts and a possible common origin from a primeval culture there is actually a common Steppe cultural archetype "from Danube to Amur" as Yuri Roerich put it. Yeah, I also believe in this. And I'm also quite puzzled with obvious linguistic paralles between Mongol and Scythian cultures. The most obvious thing that comes to my mind is Targitai(Scythian/Sarmatian god) and Targutai (unfortunate brother of Genghis khan), etc...
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Post by Ardavarz on Nov 5, 2010 3:14:19 GMT 3
Indeed. One of the outstanding common features in Scythian and Mongolian mythology is for instance the female deity of fire (as opposite to the male fire god amongst sedentary cultures) - Scythian goddess Tabiti identified with Greek Hestia ("fireplace, hearth") and Mongolian goddess Galun Eke ("Fire-Mother") or Golumta Eke ("Mother of the Fireplace, Hearth-Mother"). The name of the forefather of Scythian royal dynasty Targitaos (Greek transcription) also could be interpreted as Mongolian Targi-tai - "one from Targi (?)". But what is Targi? In the legends of Volga Bulgars is mentioned a legendary ancestor called Targiz. And interesting - he is associated with the sword-cult already discussed above in this thread - it is told that Cimmerians allegedly had some ritual consisting of jump over a sword. Even though this could be medieval re-interpretation of Herodotus it is still curiously reminding the sword of Scythian Ares/Mars. And then - Al-Mas'udi in his "Meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems" also make use of the name Targiz as ethnonym most likely referring to Volga Bulgars in 10th century. Now, if we accept the controversial reading of legends of Khorezmian coins by Azgar Mukhamadiev: s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/33WritingTuranian/TurPismoEn9-15.htm- there Khorezmian kings are designated as "kings of trgi" (Targi!). The author interprets it as "the state" - identification with the name Turan seems not very convincing, but maybe it really have something to do with the later Türgesh. Is it possible that Targi is a name of some royal clan or tribe? Herodotus believed that Scythians have come from Middle Asia under pressure of the Massagets. Targitaus has been equaled with Greek Heracles/Hercules and Saka-Sogdian hero Rustam. Maybe similar migration has occurred eastward and this was the link between Scythians and Xiongnu? According to Scythian tradition related by Herodotus between Targitaus and the Persian invasion in Scythia under Darius at 513 B.C.E. have passed a thousand years "no more and no less" - so it should have been in 1513 B.C.E. (By the way I use this as beginning point of my personal "Scythian era" or A.T.S. (Anno Targitai Scythici - year of Targitaus the Scythian) - thus the present year is 3523 A.T.S.
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Post by benzin on Mar 7, 2011 21:22:43 GMT 3
Excuse me, I havent noticed this topic before, Sycras means Sparkling in Hungarian. Szikra - Spark, Szikrás - The one who throw sparks or sparkling. gmonte wrote: Are you sure you are translating that right? Is Scyras the Sciri? ardavarz wrote: To make matters worse, titles have been adopted as names and names have become titles! One issue about Snorri is that he was trying to remove the pagan religion part of the Scandinavian sagas for Christian readers. I wouldn't place too much credence on his idea about Odin coming from Asia.
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 10, 2011 3:12:38 GMT 3
Thanks for noticing this thread again. I happen to be studying a little Latin now so it is interesting to see the Latin sentence again. Scyras (not Sycras) is the name of the Sciri (Scyri) with a Latin accusative-plural case ending. Most of the following words are adjectives that have to match the same case.
Scyras barbaram nationem maximis chunorum
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Post by benzin on Mar 11, 2011 13:34:01 GMT 3
Scyras is an ancient form of Shiraz, Persia as well.
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Post by Ardavarz on Mar 12, 2011 1:07:28 GMT 3
Thanks for noticing this thread again. I happen to be studying a little Latin now so it is interesting to see the Latin sentence again. Scyras (not Sycras) is the name of the Sciri (Scyri) with a Latin accusative-plural case ending. Most of the following words are adjectives that have to match the same case. Scyras barbaram nationem maximis chunorum That's interesting. I didn't think about such interpretation at the time. (Unfortunately my Latin is rather rusty now .) But later I came across some mentioning of the Sciri - they were supposedly a Germanic tribe. And this text designates them as Huns (belonging to the Hun alliance perhaps?).
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 12, 2011 21:32:46 GMT 3
i personally question them being Germanic, there's no clear evidence of them being Germanic and it's just guesswork. all the few facts about them we have suggest them beings Huns of some sort.
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 13, 2011 22:58:21 GMT 3
I don't know much about the Sciri. Wikipedia has some interesting information about them. It looks like they might be "Hun" only because they were in alliance with them, but that doesn't automatically make them German. Apparently Pliny, Caeser, and Tacitus never mention them amongst the Germans.
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Post by Ardavarz on Mar 14, 2011 1:21:23 GMT 3
I don't know much either. I just found a mention of them by J. Harmatta: "The Skiri were a Teutonic tribe who were to play some part in the age of the Huns." They were mentioned in the so-called Protogenes inscription from Olbia (2nd century B.C.E.). I am not sure if this is the oldest mentioning of them. Harmatta refers to the work of L. Schmidt "Die Ostgermanen" (München, 1941). www.kroraina.com/sarm/jh/jh1_1.html#22.
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 14, 2011 23:38:26 GMT 3
I don't know much about the Sciri. Wikipedia has some interesting information about them. It looks like they might be "Hun" only because they were in alliance with them, but that doesn't automatically make them German. Apparently Pliny, Caeser, and Tacitus never mention them amongst the Germans. yeah pretty much. i've already touched upon the issue of Scirii on my other topic on "Steppe influence on Germanic people" here: steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=board09&action=display&thread=1212
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