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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 8, 2011 23:01:27 GMT 3
True, the useage of ethnonyms Azeri/Azari and Azarbaijani for the Turkic-speaking people of Azerbaijan is a recent Russian/Soviet invention. Before that, names like Turk and Tatar were used for the people we now call "Azeris/Azerbaijanis" (still in Iran they are called "Tork" or Turk). In fact, the border between where Anatolian Turks end "Azeri/Azerbaijani" Turks start is also quite vague, as for example the Turkish residents of Erzurum speak a dialect closer to Azerbaijan compared with the Istanbul or Aegean dialects. Actually all the way from the Aegean coast to the Caspian Sea, the dialectical changes and variaties are quite smooth going from west to east. Aegean is not so different from Central Anatolian (such as those of Ankara, Konya, Kırşehir, Kayseri, etc, also those of Central Black Sea such as Kastamonu and Sinop) while it is still "smoother" compared to that; the area of Sivas is right in the middle between Central Anatolian and Erzurum, which is quite similar to Azeri. I guess the only major difference between the Turks of Erzurum and Azerbaijan is religious (Sunni-Shiite).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2011 0:09:58 GMT 3
That is true, Eastern Anatolia (Turks) has much more in common with Azerbaijan than lets say Western Anatolia, as weird as it could sound. I think it's because that historically Eastern Anatolian Turks and Azerbaijani Turks were not separated like today.
We should look at Qara-Qoyunlu, Aq-Qoyunlu and even Safavid periods. Eastern Anatolian Turks and Azerbaijani Turks were one and same.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 10, 2011 18:06:13 GMT 3
I agree.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2011 19:24:14 GMT 3
About the name, it's interesting actually, and the Tatar usage are not only limited to Russians.
Armenians: Turk Persians: Tork Georgians: Tatarebi (present) Russians: Tatar or Transcaucasian Tatar (Historically) Iraq: Turkmen
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 24, 2011 12:32:57 GMT 3
Interesting. I have also seen some British documents from the 1910s and 1920s that refer to "Azeris" as Tatars. Similarly, the "Uyghurs" of East Turkestan were referred as Turki and Turkish in the American Foreign Office documents from the 1940s.
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Post by missanthropology58 on Dec 4, 2011 21:06:38 GMT 3
The Azeris were never Persians or Iranic , they fought against them. Azeris can only be labelled Shia Muslim Turks in my opinion the whole Ismaili movement was based on fighting Persians and the Mamkeluks who were the Sunni Muslim Turks. However ethnically, they are a Turkic ethnic group. As a race they have Cimmerians, Huns, Gokturks, Khazars, B arsils, Kurtugurs, Saragurs, Kipchaks lineage
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Dec 25, 2011 11:58:48 GMT 3
Well it depends on what period of time you take, as to define word "never". And I was asking myself out of curiosity when Azeris fought Persians, (And by Persians I mean the people, that some call Persians and I noticed that scholars call them Iranians . )?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2011 14:50:42 GMT 3
"And I was asking myself out of curiosity when Azeris fought Persians"
I guess Safavid conquest of Persians? The fact is Safavid conqured Persians and forcifully made them Shia, as much as Persians can claim them as "Iranian".
The wars between Khanates and Qajars cannot be counted as Azerbaijani-Persian conflict I guess.
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Post by abdulhay on Dec 26, 2011 22:53:54 GMT 3
I dont agree with u, persians were shia before the safavid dynasty,
also todays modern iranian society can date back to safavid era becasue of the central authority and harsh shia sharia laws as a legal basis for goverment.
thats right, the qajars were from astrabad, present day gorgan, which is a city in turkmen territory and not nothing to do either with azeri or persians
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2011 22:59:58 GMT 3
No, Persians were largely Sunni before Safavids. A very well known fact. Brutal conversion into Shia faith are also well known. Qajars were originally from Azerbaijan actually, and not even Iranian Azerbaijan, but present-day Azerbaijan Republic. They are a branch of Azeri Turks and speak a dialect of Azeri Turkish aswell. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KajarsThe reason why the Qajar dynasty were from north-east Iran was because most of them were re-settled there during Safavid era, along with some Afshars and Kurds. Eventually they (the ones that settled in north-east Iran) were the ones that founded the dynasty itself. Anyway, have you ever heard of Shia Turkmens (Turkmenistan and Turkmen-Sahra)? I haven't, and Qajars were Shia to begin with. A good example regarding relation between the Qajar clan and Azerbaijan are some Khans of Azerbaijani Khanates who had local Qajar roots. Karabakh, Ganja, Quba Khanates, for instance.
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Post by abdulhay on Dec 27, 2011 0:54:18 GMT 3
I have never read that persian were sunni before safavid era, the two persian dynasties rooting from iran during islamic era both buywid and muaffazar are both of shia and before the safavid era,
the reason tughrul beg invaded iraq and other parts of islamic world after his conquest of marwanahr and khwarazm was because the caliph wanted his help to subdue the shia persian who were making political problems to the caliph due to other religious branch than sunni islam,
also the muaffarz kingdoms if isfahan and neighbour persian client dynasties to the ilkhanids were of shia origin and not sunni, also hassan sabbah were of shia origin,
I do agree with u that its very far away for turkmens of central asia being shia, but I havent read about the qajars being shia, since the qajars even spoke turkmen when they came to power and the agha mohammad khan and faith ali shah look very turkmen but thats not evidence of them being turkmen but what I wanted to say was that they have been intermixing with turkmens and therefore considered a more turkmen dynasty rather than azeri since it was more than 200 years ago they had any connection with azeribaijan,
also the afshar is a medieval turkmen tribe that settled down in marawanhar and khwarazm khorasan and not a azeri tribe, azeri are indo-european tribe speaking somehow a form of turkish not complete turkish either,
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Post by abdulhay on Dec 27, 2011 1:03:56 GMT 3
have u read or heard , if u have heard than its not so reliable to argue in a steppe historical debate forum,
what I read and heard the azeris were sunni before not the persians, but u seem to mix up persian with azeri but its very common in iran since nationalism isnt valid in iran. In iran if u dont know religion is still very important, the majority of irans population actually choose the islamic republic to guide them, it was the shias since the persian make of half of the population and azeris a third or fourth they toghether made the islamic republic, against the other ethicities will in iran.
the way people identify themselfs is by religion in iran and not so much with ethicity as u think.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 1:09:12 GMT 3
Jeez, Persians were Sunni before Safavids, and Safavids killed thousands in order to complete the conversion into Shia faith. You haven't heard of Qajars being Shia? Please look up for founder of Qajar dynasty, he was Shia. They look Azeri Turk to me and not Central Asian Turkmen. Azerbaijani Turks consists of many Oghuz clans, and Afshars are one of them. The major groups that forms Azerbaijani ethnicity are Airum, Qaradagh, Qarapapakh, Afshar, Shahseven, Padar and so on...I think you are confusing Turkoman/Turkmen term of medieval times with modern Turkmen term of Turkmenistan. Turkoman/Turkmen was also the ethnic name of Azerbaijani and Anatolian Turks. WTF does that mean? First of all, Azeri as an ethnic name (or language) were not used for people of Azerbaijan untill very recently. Seriously, what does a form of Turkish mean? Azerbaijani language are a branch of Oghuz Turkic. And to your "surprise", the closest language to Turkmen of Central Asia.
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Post by abdulhay on Dec 27, 2011 1:27:34 GMT 3
Please give source,
Again I ask u , have u heard or read, its a big difference, if u have heard than its isnt so reliable , please come with a historical source
Also both agha mohammad khan and baba khan aka faith ali shah, look very turkmen to me, but the later shahs look azeri maybe due to intermixing with persians I dont know.
U seem to read or just read what interests u at that point were u can prove your point of view, have u ever read about the conflict between buywid persia adn tughrul begs seljuks turkmens? did u even know who the buywids are?
U dont need to swear to something u dont understand, according to my view and maybe to the general idea among turks in central asia, we dont consider azeri being a turkish language or a turkic people, to be a turkic , its about race and not language neither culture , but thats my idea not yours,
it hs nothing personal against to do with u but of political reasons I guess, also geograpihcally, central asia si far away from azerbaijan, there is no connection between the lands and the language and culture is to far away , central asian turkic people share alot in common both political and regional which azeri dont , as I said its nothing to do with u or azeri people but of political reasons,
It seem that speaking a turkic language isnt enough to bring toghether azeri with central asian turkic people ,
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 1:34:59 GMT 3
No, I have not "heard", I have read. You could also start to read. As I said, you could start with reading about the founder of Qajar dynasty, you will see that he was a Shia. They look like Azeri Turk to me. Not that there isn't "Central Asian" looking people among Azerbaijani Turks, there are many.
I somehow doubt that you are from Central Asia. To begin with, they don't use the terms you do (and surely neither have such "toughts"). But that's another thing.
Azerbaijan and Central Asia are far away? There is only the Caspian Sea betwen. It's not farther away than let's say Middle-East.
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