Who would win , Modu Shanyu or Alexander?

[abdulhay]

A question to all the military history fans, who would win a battle would modu shanyu or alexander if they meet?

Also another interesting battle would be between Modu shanyu and Djingiz Khan, who would win,

please give me your thoughts

[Subu'atai]

Alexander's victories were based on using the hammer+anvil strategy using sarissa-armed phalanxes (the Anvil) and unlike Greeks, Macedonians were also good horsemen (the Hammer). He fought well against bulk-infantry armies but I do question how he would fair against a steppe cavalry army. Macedonian phalangites unlike ancient Greek hoplites favored a two-handed long pike with their small shields strapped on their left arm, rather then a solid shield wall.

So phalangites are nothing but target practice for a steppe cavalrymen. As for Macedonian cavalry, I doubt they can match the skill of horsemenship of steppe warriors. On an infantry battle however, even the Romans couldn't even go toe to toe to slice up the phalangites due to their wall of pikes. But due to phalanx weaknesses vs cavalry archer force -> Modu Shanyu would consider Alexander's army more of a joke then a threat xD

As for Modu Shanyu VS CHingghis Khaan... are you serious? Chingghis Khaan perfected steppe warfare and built a modern disciplined army. So I vote for Chingghis

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Chingghis Khaan perfected steppe warfare and built a modern disciplined army. So I vote for Chingghis

So did Mo-du Chan-yu

[Subu'atai]

Khagan, do you have any sources in regards to military reforms made by Modu Shanyu himself however? This is quite interested now that you mentioned.

Topic of Alexander VS Modu Shanyu however is a joke LOL! Pike formations... xD

Nomad 1: *walking his horse and shooting random phalangites*
Nomad 2: *this is unfair, look at them, they are so helpless!*
Nomad 1: *meh i'd rather drink to the stupidity of our enemies then drink to our fallen*
Nomad 2: *fine... agreed!*

Nomads keep shooting the helpless phalangites...

Nomad 1: *Some have broken out of formation and charging! Look at them go*
Nomad 2: *Err shouldn't we help*
Nomad 1: *Yes sure let's charge our full force just because of a few our enemy's random idiots decided to break out of formation thus losing their advantage of pike vs cavalry."
Nomad 2: "Sarcasm... tsk tsk"

Nomads wipe out the breakaways...

Nomad 2: "Look at them, they are bloody struggling to maintain their front, there's gaps everywhere amongst the pikes, it's time to charge!"
Nomad 1: "Fine!" *goes bottoms up* "CHARGE!!!!*

Phalangite formations lacking discipline and morale, end up not being able to resist a melee charge. Well, that's how I see a battle happening between Modu Shanyu and Alexander ne ways lol! Alexander's army is definitely not well equipped to deal with a steppe army. Nor in modern times are Tanks equipped to deal with Anti-Tank helicopters.

[jamyangnorbu]

I thought Alexander's army did engage and defeat the Scythians at one point. Anyone more knowledgeable about this care to comment?

[sarmat]

Yes, Alexander is believed to defeat Scythians in one engagement beyond Jaxartes around 329 BC. However, he clearly hasn't complitely routed them and didn't continue his campaign, instead he retreated back after the battle.

Also, roughly at that time in 330 BC, Macedonian ethnarch in Thracia, Zapirionus tried to conquer Scythians and crossed the Danube with a Macadonian army 30 thousand strong. The guy was defeated by Scythians and was killed during that campaign...

[sarmat]

Well. Modu Shanyu vs Alexander confrontation would be something similar to the battle of Carrhae. Let's also not forget that Romans were supposed to be better than the Macedonians and Xiongnu of Modu Shanyu wouldn't be weaker than the Parthians...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carrhae

Though he had originally planned to shatter the Roman lines with a charge by his cataphracts, he judged that this would not be enough to break them at this point. Thus, he sent his horse archers to surround the Roman square. Crassus sent his skirmishers to drive the horse archers off, but they retreated under heavy fire. The horse archers then began to shower the legionaries with arrows. The density of the Roman formation practically guaranteed that every shot would hit, and the Parthian's composite bows were powerful enough to pierce the legionary's armor and partially penetrate the legionary's shields. The legionaries were well protected by their large shields (scuta), though these could not cover the entire body. Therefore the majority of wounds inflicted were nonfatal hits to exposed limbs.[19] The Romans repeatedly advanced towards the Parthians to attempt to engage in close-quarters fighting, but the horse archers were always able to retreat safely, firing parthian shots as they withdrew. The legionaries then formed the testudo formation, in which they locked their shields together to present a nearly impenetrable front to missiles.[20] However, this formation severely restricted their ability to fight in melee combat. The Parthian cataphracts exploited this weakness and repeatedly charged the Roman line, causing panic and inflicting heavy casualties.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Jun 3, 2010 18:04:20 GMT 3 Subu'atai said:

Khagan, do you have any sources in regards to military reforms made by Modu Shanyu himself however? This is quite interested now that you mentioned.

In Shi-ji 史記, 110: 288 and Han-shu 漢書, 94A: 3749, we have accounts of Mo-du Chan-yu 冒頓單于 inventing the whistling arrow and training 10 thousand cavalrymen under his service as an elite cavalry unit that could shoot Mo-du's favorite horse, favorite wife, his father Tou-man's 頭曼 favorite horse and and eventually his father himself upon Mo-du's strict orders.

[ALTAR]

I think Alexander and his hoplites had no chance in the steppes, if there was a battle with Modu Chanyu's Army.

[Subu'atai]

Ah! The whistling arrow... but was there complete military reforms similar to the new system reforms Chingghis Khaan developed during the 13th century? That's what I'm asking heh.

Doesn't seem many sources during that period unfortunately either, and it's written by Chinese historian Shiji etc.

[sarmat]

"Shiji" - "Historical records" is the name of the book. The Chinese historian who wrote it and who is often called "Chinese Herodotus" was Sima Qian. :-)

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Jun 4, 2010 15:13:25 GMT 3 Subu'atai said:

Ah! The whistling arrow... but was there complete military reforms similar to the new system reforms Chingghis Khaan developed during the 13th century? That's what I'm asking heh.

The formation of an elite bodyguard unit is a military innovation in the steppes I guess.

[abdulhay]

thanks guys for your replies,

I have read your messages and was thiking of what sarmat wrote, maybe it would have been another battle of carrhae depeding on were they meet or isnt the geographic location of importance, I mean if alexander tried to cross the mongolian plains and try to defeat modu shanyu there is would be another baideng again I think,

when it comes to djingiz khan ´meeting modu shanyu it would in papers look like modu shanyu would win because modu chanyu was invincible through out his liftime which djingiz Khan was not,


what do u think?

Well. Modu Shanyu vs Alexander confrontation would be something similar to the battle of Carrhae. Let's also not forget that Romans were supposed to be better than the Macedonians and Xiongnu of Modu Shanyu wouldn't be weaker than the Parthians...

I can say now that as u said sarmat modu shanyu would not be weaker than the parthians I think even more powerfull since modu shanyu was the shanyu emperor and had full support in comparison to the parthian general who defeated crassius

[guray]

Hello everyone, I ask a question about the fantastic war between Modu Shanyu and Chinggis Kagan.
Can you really imagine it, both of them contributed all steppe warrriors in their time. Both of them established a huge country from almost nothing. Maybe Modu Shanyu is a little bit lucky for being the son of Tuman. However, he had not even flamming arrows. If we think only comparing the armies, it won't be true. The most important factor is faith of their folks and even if we suppose they live at the same time, which folks contributed Chinggis Kagan or Modu Shanyu?
The war is different from the arm wrestling, it doesn't matter that one of them is stronger. There are lots of factors, for example I haven't heard that Modu Shanyu's troops fear the thunder, the weather may be thundery.
I want to give an example only. I don't underestimate Chinggis Kagan or his troops. Nevertheless, I think anyone can't make a decision easily when he/she talk about the winner of this war...

[merlkir]

I would like to offer another point of view on the Alexander vs. Shanyu matchup.

You all presume Alexander would use the phalanx as a primary tactic and formation. However, we know that while moving through Bactria and Sogdiana Alexander changed his army considerably. Since he conquered Persia, his army contained many native warriors, he was obviously very aware of the weakness phalanx had against mounted archers.

That's why, surprise oh surprise, he employed mounted archers of his own, both recruited from the local tribes and retrained persian conscripts. He also changed the infantry in favour of lightly armed mobile troops (like his famous thracians and agrianes) over the heavy phalanx.

I think the idea of such a matchup is a flawed one - do you just pit these forces against each other without any preparation? Well, that doesn't really tell you anything about the commanders, rather about the two fixed styles of warfare.

I believe that if Alexander had the time to prepare, he'd be an even match to Shanyu.